Why no WFE discussion?

[t44tq]

I've been on here a while now and noticed that no one talks much about WFE these days. Is it because it's so scarce?

I only got into Willett recently and feel like I missed the boat on this one. I only have two so far- a 9 yr and an 11 yr bourbon.

[flahute]

NDP's aren't taken to too kindly here when they are as pricey as the Willett's are. Most folks here want to know what they are getting and that information is not forthcoming from Willett unless it's the rye distilled in Indiana.

[Kyjd75]

It has been discussed from time to time. Willett seems to be a love it or hate it brand on this board. I happen to live close enough to Willett to visit whenever I feel like it, and it is always a neat place to go. True, they don't disclose the source of their whiskeys but my experience has been that their bottles are always at least good to very good, and some are simply outstanding. One main reason for non-discussion of WFE is that no two barrels are totally alike (or even from the same source) and thus it can be difficult to compare buying and tasting experiences. The other current "problem" is that Willett has recognized the value of their bottles on the secondary market, and has started charging what some consider to be "secondary" market prices at their gift shop. Two years ago I cold buy a 21 year old bottle of WFE for $175. Now it is $375+ for that same bottle (I haven't bought any at that price)! Nonetheless, I am one of those who happen to like Willett and their WFE brand. I buy an occasional bottle of the 11-12 year old stuff, and will continue to do so unless it just becomes totally price prohibitive for me to do so.

[garbanzobean]

If a store got a barrel in the 6-10 year range around me, I'd try it, hoping that it's Heaven Hill rye bourbon distillate. But that hasn't happened so far, and I am not real big supporter of the KBD side of the business, so I guess it'll be a pretty long time before I finally get one of their neat looking labels. A store near me gets the WFE Rye barrels in regularly, but I'm not sold on paying Willet prices for MGP rye. Maybe I'll try one, since there isn't much SAOS barrel proof rye where I live. Also, the one bottle of Willet Pot Still I bought tasted like butt, so that's not reassuring.

Final thought: please don't take the above post as Willet hate. They are what they are, and I respect what they're doing, and even support it as far as their distilling side of their business. I'm proud to see a small operation succeeding as they have. I just don't see the value in the sourced stuff, and frankly, I've never seen a single WFE bourbon on actual store shelves so it is a bit of a moot point anyway.

[squire]

I know absolutely nothing about the rest of their lineup of whiskeys.

Sure you do, just go buy something made by Heaven Hill.

[PaulO]

WFE has been discussed a lot here, just not too much lately. I get the impression that their supply of older sourced barrels is running low, and the whiskey that they recently started making is only a few years old. Prices for WFE have also gone crazy. The supply is low, and social media have given them a lot of publicity. The kindest thing I can say, if somebody got a barrel of bourbon from any of KY's main distillers, aged it a few more years, and bottled it at barrel proof, it would probably be very nice. For myself, I won't pay big money for a pig in a poke. I can easily find Elijah Craig, KC BP, or OGD 114 at reasonable prices.

[Restaurant man]

For myself, I won't pay big money for a pig in a poke. I can easily find Elijah Craig, KC BP, or OGD 114 at reasonable prices.

This^^^. I've got enough bourbon to buy. I can avoid Willett quite easily. Ecbp is $50 give or take. If it had a Willett label on it the price would be $150 and people would fawn

[Smithford]

I've been on here a while now and noticed that no one talks much about WFE these days.

Folks might also be gun-shy, since when you talk about Willett here, sometimes bad things happen.

[t44tq]

Folks might also be gun-shy, since when you talk about Willett here, sometimes bad things happen.

Wow, that's an interesting one.

The whole Willett provenance question is why I was hoping for more discussion. It would help if reviews were consolidated and combined with the barrel listing, so we have some idea about the flavor profile of a barrel.

I've tasted three or four WFE bottlings, all in the 10-14 yr age range, all of them have been really good. I only have two bottles, now.

Because the gift shop price is so high and the private bottlings have ceased, I'm kind of forced to resort to secondary markets to source the stuff. I guess I really drank the kool-aid on this one! [emoji3]

[Josh]

Folks might also be gun-shy, since when you talk about Willett here, sometimes bad things happen.

Ha! I had almost forgotten about that thread. I'm still kind of baffled by how that went down. That was back when Willet was more consistent, too. It was always hit or miss but now it seems like the misses are more common than the hits and much more expensive.

Check out the WRMC Four Grain thread for more fun: http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?6086-Woodford-Reserve-Master%92s-Collection-Four-Grain-(Batch-No-2)

Edited May 9, 2015 by Josh

[BFerguson]

From my point of view, that ship has sailed.

It was the business of their past, not their future.

Granted, some nice ones did come out from them........

B

[The Black Tot]

I'll happily discuss WFE, especially with those who know more about what makes the great ones great than me (which is probably a lot of you).

Even though I've had a few off bottles from the KBD portfolio, I admire them. The GOOD ones I've been lucky enough to grab quickly are some of the most enjoyable bottles in my collection. Drew clearly knows what he's doing up on that little hill.

KBD re-starting their picking program is a realistic fantasy of mine that I am patiently waiting for. I know I'll probably be waiting years. That's OK, I'll wait.

I have every faith that they'll do great things with their new distillate 6 years from now when things start hitting the 8yr mark.

I suppose the prevailing sentiment in this thread is correct, that they don't get discussed much because there is a fog of mystery around them, so what is there precisely that can be discussed?...

...but you'll find some incredible flavors once in a while fumbling through the darkness.

Lastly, it's quite a dance trying to nimbly jump in and get a good retail selection at a good price these days with all the flipper pressure. But it seems to still happen once in a blue moon. Or maybe we should say once in a purple foil...

They are who and what they are. The things they get criticized for don't matter to me - the proof is in the bottle, or else it isn't. I'd rather have a mystery rackhouse that bottles the occasional monster than a totally transparent operation that doesn't.

[Kyjd75]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Hope you are enjoying those WFEs from P & M!

[The Black Tot]

Sure am, Kyjd75. Sure am!

[garbanzobean]

In case I wasn't clear: I don't have a major issue with mystery meat whiskey as long as I am guaranteed consistency (unlikely), or if can try that specific batch or barrel before I buy. My tastebuds will tell me if it is worth asking price or not.

[mbroo5880i]

Every WFE product that I have had has been very good. However, I don't believe I have purchased any since 2013. As someone noted, they and retailers have pushed the pricing beyond reasonable for the product. I stopped buying WFE products once I found Smooth Ambler.

[flahute]

My first response to this thread last night was right before I went to sleep so abbreviated it quite a bit. Jumping back in to add that I'm a fan of WFE and have never had a bad bottle and some have been amazing. Even though I know they source from the majors, what's different about them (and SAOS) is that they bottle non chill filtered and barrel proof and usually with more age than whatever regular brand it was originally intended for. This makes it very interesting to me and willing to take a chance............except for recently with the crazy prices they now command. Quick aside - even though I'm a fan, I don't say much here because of how polarizing they are to people on this board. It's not worth it. And to be clear, I do understand why some don't like them or want to support them. Back to my thoughts: I got interested in them just in the nick of time to stock up before prices went really crazy so I have enough to last me for a while. It does really bother me how insane the pricing is right now, but I'm glad they are getting that cash to put into their business of distilling their own. The crazy thing about their pricing is that they increased them to close to secondary market levels and now at those prices there is still a secondary market at even higher prices. The hysteria around their product from the current group of fanboys pushes the prices on some of the bottles to Van Winkle levels. It's too much for even a fan like myself. I wish them the best and will wait for saner times. In the meantime, I'll drink slowly from the the bunker.

[The Black Tot]

Nobody likes to be priced out of a good thing, but in a way, I do like to see someone putting the brakes on the craze economically. If everyone priced like Willett does, the bubble would burst pretty damned quick. Diageo is trying to follow suit with ever higher prices per year on their warehoused goods.

When things get back down to $10/yr or less on the high year releases, I'll get back in. I don't fault them one bit for their strategy - it seems to have served them quite well, and it pays for the next generation of distillate.

[garbanzobean]

Nobody likes to be priced out of a good thing, but in a way, I do like to see someone putting the brakes on the craze economically. If everyone priced like Willett does, the bubble would burst pretty damned quick. Diageo is trying to follow suit with ever higher prices per year on their warehoused goods.

When things get back down to $10/yr or less on the high year releases, I'll get back in. I don't fault them one bit for their strategy - it seems to have served them quite well, and it pays for the next generation of distillate.

It's rare for the adage about fools and their money to work to my benefit, but in this case it is, assuming they don't screw us when it comes to the price of their house distilled bourbon. To be honest, I'm not certain that I wouldn't charge "f@ck you" money, were I in a similar situation. Look at Diageo. They have literally doubled their prices each year for some of their limited release stuff. Sure those of us with common sense balk, but idiots or rich people who are willing to pay $2000 a bottle for Port Ellen seem just as willing to pay $4000 a bottle.

[TunnelTiger]

Ten years from now when prices have moved even further up those that enjoy this will bemoan the fact that they didn't bunker more now.

I've never had any except for the two year rye because it's not available in my area. The rye was not outstanding but not bad either, just meh IMO and not over priced @ $35.

[squire]

That adage about fools and their money is usually spoken by envious people who don't have the money. How anyone spends their discretionary income is entirely their business.

I have spoken out against how Willett (and other NDPs) price their repacked goods because I don't believe the added value is there. How they price their own make goods is a different matter though which will ultimately be determined by customers in the years to come.

[garbanzobean]

That adage about fools and their money is usually spoken by envious people who don't have the money. How anyone spends their discretionary income is entirely their business.

I have spoken out against how Willett (and other NDPs) price their repacked goods because I don't believe the added value is there. How they price their own make goods is a different matter though which will ultimately be determined by customers in the years to come.

I don't know Squire. I certainly think what does and doesn't constitute foolishness is often subjective, but I can think of plenty of examples where its use has not been motivated by envy.

But I am happy to live in a country where we have the freedom to spend our money how we choose, and to call each other foolish for doing so.

[Josh]

Squire is dead on. Whenever I hear about someone spending tens of thousands of dollars on an air conditioned dog house or about the Kardashians spending thousands on anal bleaching, I think why can't that be me?

[garbanzobean]

Squire is dead on. Whenever I hear about someone spending tens of thousands of dollars on an air conditioned dog house or about the Kardashians spending thousands on anal bleaching, I think why can't that be me?

Yeah but that's different. Who DOESN'T want an Aryan bunghole?

[t44tq]

I was hoping someone can start consolidating reviews and tasting notes, as there seem to be quite a few bottles of WFE out there on the secondary.

I missed the Astor release a few days ago, not happy about that one, nor was I happy when I missed the cured oak release in PA.