Thoughts on "Finished" Bourbons?

[Ravensfire]

AE rye is the odd ball, it's overdone on the rum, as I think the sweetness overtakes it, but yet I love it, but only very infrequently. I just love the whole "Christmas in a bottle" thing it has going.

So true. My first pour of this was at the Seelbach in Louisville and I just stared at the bartender. I've had what I call desert beers (think Southern Tier Creme Brulee) but never a desert whiskey until then. A good finished whiskey can either enhance what's there (HHSS) or give it a twist that works ( AE rye). Jim beams brandy finish was a bit muddled for me but MM46 is a nice variation of the base MM.

[dboland]

I have only tried a couple:

1. High West Midwinter's Night Dram - I thought it was excellent. Truly unique without going too far sweet or overwhelming the rye character.

2. Angel's Envy (bourbon) - Ok. Doesn't really do much for me and I prefer most regular bourbons a lot more.

Finished whiskies seemed like a way for NDPs to stand out from the rest of the MGP/sourced stuff, only now everybody seems to be doing it. I think it is also seen as more sophisticated than the flavored ones though I think some aim to just make the whiskey sweeter and impart fruity flavors.

[smokinjoe]

Finally got a chance to try the Angel's Envy (Port Wine Barrels) tonight. Surprised me with the taste, but for the money, and I think it is too hot for the proof, I would not buy again.

A observation, usually whiskey/bourbon after taking a sip, there would be a film left behind, with this stuff, I get bubbles.

Thanks for the update, MTN. The port is rather subdued in the AE. Sounds like your bottle could have used more to mask the heat, maybe. Though IMO, it finishing shouldn't "mask", rather it should "complement" the base whiskey. A delicate balance that takes some practice, I imagine. Perhaps it will grow on you.

:toast:

[smokinjoe]

I have only tried a couple:

1. High West Midwinter's Night Dram - I thought it was excellent. Truly unique without going too far sweet or overwhelming the rye character.

2. Angel's Envy (bourbon) - Ok. Doesn't really do much for me and I prefer most regular bourbons a lot more.

Finished whiskies seemed like a way for NDPs to stand out from the rest of the MGP/sourced stuff, only now everybody seems to be doing it. I think it is also seen as more sophisticated than the flavored ones though I think some aim to just make the whiskey sweeter and impart fruity flavors.

Good stuff, DB. I agree with everything you say. The mistake is made when they do that last part ; "...just make the whiskey sweeter and impart fruity flavors." As I wrote above, I think finishing should complement rather than mask...or also, impart that sweetness and fruity flavors.

I'm still a buyer on finished whiskies, but the learning curve is long, and the road is littered with pot holes.

The HW MMD, on the other hand, is a smooth golden highway. :yum: Gorgeous whiskey.

[tanstaafl2]

Finally got a chance to try the Angel's Envy (Port Wine Barrels) tonight. Surprised me with the taste, but for the money, and I think it is too hot for the proof, I would not buy again.

A observation, usually whiskey/bourbon after taking a sip, there would be a film left behind, with this stuff, I get bubbles.

Have to wonder if AE is having trouble getting decent whiskey of late like everybody else. Early bottles I purchased when it first came out were not particularly hot to my recollection but I haven't tried a bottle purchased recently. And I don't recall if there is any way to tell which is which.

[Harry in WashDC]

At the WP/Hillrock tasting I reported on circa Dec 9th 2016, on the "Tastings" subtopic, I was wowed by the "finished" bourbons although I liked the traditional offerings, too.  And as I posted on the WR Brandy finish thread, I passed due to past experiences with these experiments.  On the recommendation of a few of you, I bought a bottle and tasted it.  I loved it.  Then, I read all the posts and links in the Jos. A. Magnus thread and thoroughly enjoyed the external link article.  I bought a bottle of the triple cask finish and loved it.  THEN, I read Charlutz's post on some thread about how he didn't really like sherry finishes and finished bourbons like Angel's Envy (did I get that right,Charlie? - don't want to misrepresent) but did like what he tasted.  ALL THAT got me thinking (a danger for retirees, BTW, since we have no deadlines or budgets or bosses telling us to DECIDE!!).

 

It looks like even the major distillers are moving toward the scotch model - NAS bottom shelf stuff, blended (or blends of straight bourbon of different ages in our case) on the middle, and some high margin staples on the top with very high priced limited releases with fancy names including lots of "finished" stuff.  The latter two, as we have seen lately, are getting pricey compared to what we used to pay for them.  But, (and Nancy F., I'm not picking on you, but your wonderful article on the history of distilling and blending of cognac and the use of the word "rectified" got me thinking in a good way), I'm starting to get concerned that the historical reasons we got the "Bottled in Bond" act and the statutory and regulatory definitions of "whiskey" and "straight" and "bourbon" etc., are becoming obscured.

 

An example - let's take a high quality but basic 6 year old bourbon and put it in a port cask for a month or two to give it something "special".  But suppose the color is just a little "light" so we want to add caramel.  Why is that a bad thing? (he asked rhetorically.)  All we are doing is improving a VISUAL.

 

Here's my problem - 30 years' experience as a government regulator (including 10+ years of criminal work) tells me that I can trust most people to obey the rules, but the rules weren't put in place for them - the rules are there because unscrupulous persons added caramel to cover up their use of grain alcohol instead of wood-aged 6 YR bourbon to get the color "right" then added other flavorings to make their concoction taste like whiskey.  In this connection, I think I CAN trust the producers whose "finished" products I've tasted over the last week or so based on how open they are about their processes, recipes, aims, and goals.  I'm not sure that all players in the marketplace are that forthcoming.

 

(I told you I hadn't really thought this through.)    So, while I really like some of the finished bourbons I have tried lately (the last three years), I worry that playing with the final flavors of basic bourbon (and rye, for that matter) will become the RULE, rather than the exception.  That, I think, would be sad.  It would also mean that people like us who appreciate the art and craft behind putting tens of thousands of gallons of quality spirit on the market at what in many cases is at a MORE than fair price will be ignored in favor of the consumers who are attracted by the latest new label with triple (NO!! Quadruple!!) finished stuff.

 

(I told you this was not well-organized.  Blame it on KC NAS batch L6301CLA/125461736 which is still pretty darn tasty, I can say, and it's not even dinnertime).  These thoughts are my own.  I'm, pretty sure.  I don't take criticism well in spite of the practice I have had, but don't let that deter you.  PLEASE!!  Poke holes.

 

[Moved by me on 19 Dec 2016 from the ""Observations" on the market thread to here - this is more about finished biourbons than it is about the general market.]

 

[coleary0801]

Yellow Rose out of Houston did a port finished bourbon that I really enjoyed. They also did a rye finished in maple syrup barrels. The finished rye was interesting, but ultimately not my favorite.

It's been a while since I had either, sorry I don't have any tasting notes.

Edited January 24, 2018 by coleary0801

[mortre]

The only foray I've made into finished bourbon's was angels envy, and I hate it. To the point that when it's the only thing in the house, I'll go without. Even the BBQ sauce we made out of it was bad. That experience has turned me off to finished bourbon's completely.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[flahute]

Interesting timing that this thread has just been resurrected at precisely the same time that I've been conversing with Nancy about finished bourbons and a project I'm potentially working on with a local distillery 

Prior to a few days ago, I didn't think much of finished bourbons. Angel's Envy is a pass for me. HHSS finished in cognac casks is a win. I had been thinking that they were the exception.

Conversations with Nancy have educated me as to the science behind what makes a finish work. It's not easy nor is it automatic. 

I have a new found appreciation for the finishes that work. 

[musekatcher]

46 minutes ago, flahute said:

I have a new found appreciation for the finishes that work. 

 

I should explore them more.  I kinda considered them a gimmick, like Fireball, or Apple Pie and just never went there past an offer from a respected host.  But I did enjoy Teeling's single grain, when I only discovered its finishing half way thru the bottle, lol.  I'm alternating a bottle of Forty Creek with OGD and StaggJr at the moment, and I'd swear Forty Creek is spiked with something sweetish and buttery, almost toasted. 

[Richnimrod]

3 hours ago, musekatcher said:

 

I should explore them more.  I kinda considered them a gimmick, like Fireball, or Apple Pie and just never went there past an offer from a respected host.  But I did enjoy Teeling's single grain, when I only discovered its finishing half way thru the bottle, lol.  I'm alternating a bottle of Forty Creek with OGD and StaggJr at the moment, and I'd swear Forty Creek is spiked with something sweetish and buttery, almost toasted. 

It indeed may be 'spiked' with 'something'....  

If I'm not mistaken (entirely possible) those neighbors to our North are allowed up to 9.(something) percent of flavoring agents in their whisky. 

Somebody with true knowledge should step in here to definitively say what I may have entirely wrong ... or not ... about this.    I am certain I read something about this, in Whisky Advocate, I think.   Anybody???

[Charlutz]

A twice resurrected thread - once by Harry after a year of dormancy and then again by coleary after another year after I ignored Harry’s question to me. Sorry! Glad you’re still above ground after all this time, Harry, so that I can belatedly respond. 

 

I still am not in love with finished whiskeys. I’ve not had many, just Angel’s Envy bourbon and rye, Yippee Ki Yay, Magnus and 1792PF. I also had Alberta Dark Batch, but I think that’s more of a blend than a finished whiskey. Same for Michter’s American Whiskey as well I think. I emptied (by drinking) the Magnus over the holidays this year. I found a new respect for it thanks to Nancy’s explanations about what she intended to do by creating it, but I wouldn’t buy it again. Not at $100 and probably not even at $50. I’m glad I tried it, but for now I’m not looking for it again. 

 

In the past year I’ve also delved into rums and have tried about a dozen plus. I’ve found an appreciation for the sweetness of rum and even like a port finished Foursquare rum. The marriage of sweet and sweet in that Foursquare works for me. 

 

It hasn’t translated into a taste for finished whiskey however as I saw with the Magnus. I also found I like the 1792PF better when I mix it 40/60 with 1792FP. I take the subtle finishing of the PF and dilute it even more to get it where I like it. I like having to search for the port flavor in that blend. 

 

This is just where my taste taste buds are. They’ve changed before and I’ll keep an open mind, but my door to finished whiskeys is opened just a crack. Hey, that’s me. 

[Harry in WashDC]

Saw Charlie's post so I went back through the thread.  Since somebody posted that rambling opus just over a year ago, I've noticed that "finished" bourbons have not taken over.  Rather, they still hang around, at least in my house, as occasional sippers and as after dinner drinks when entertaining (an occurrence that becomes less frequent as we age, BTW).  In the latter case, they compete with cognac, dessert wines, port, and coffee.  It looks like they will soon be competing with rums.  Thanks, Charlie.  I just started (well, mid-2017) paying attention to the rum discussions here on SB.

 

It also appears to me that, at least at the higher end, the finished whiskeys are no longer being treated as a novelty by the makers as the flavors, at least to me, mesh better than the "standard whiskey plus some sweet/spice additive".  In other words, they seem to be paying attention to what the stuff tastes like rather than to the eye-catching description on the label.  At least in my demographic of one.

[FacePlant]

I would expect to be in the minority on this one. Fermented grapes don't sit well with me. I don't/can't drink any wine, brandy, cognac, sherry, or champagne. Since most of the "finishes" are done in a previously used fermented grape barrel I don't care for the taste at all. If the pour only has the slighted hint of grape I might be able to tolerate it, but I just usually stay safe and say NO. The glaring exception to this would be Macallam or a couple of other Scotch's where the peat covers the grape well.

 

[GeeTen]

6 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

It also appears to me that, at least at the higher end, the finished whiskeys are no longer being treated as a novelty by the makers as the flavors, at least to me, mesh better than the "standard whiskey plus some sweet/spice additive".  In other words, they seem to be paying attention to what the stuff tastes like rather than to the eye-catching description on the label.  At least in my demographic of one.

Issac Bowman Port Finished - YUM!    

 

[fishnbowljoe]

I've only had three (four) finished bourbons that I can recall right off hand, so my experience with these is pretty limited. As far as those that I've had; I bought a bottle of Woodford Reserve Masters Collection Sonoma Cutrer when I first got into bourbon. It absolutely sucked.  Newbie mistake.  I've purchased a couple of bottles of Angel's Envy over the years. I like it well enough, but the price is a bit questionable IMHO. I usually see it on the shelf around where I live in the upper $40.00 price range. There are a whole bunch of other things I'd rather spend my money on at better prices. I more than likely will never buy another bottle for that factor alone. And last, but certainly not least, our two SBHHSS bottlings. Both were absolutely awesome.   

 

Biba! Joe

[Harry in WashDC]

6 hours ago, FacePlant said:

I would expect to be in the minority on this one. Fermented grapes don't sit well with me. I don't/can't drink any wine, brandy, cognac, sherry, or champagne. Since most of the "finishes" are done in a previously used fermented grape barrel I don't care for the taste at all. If the pour only has the slighted hint of grape I might be able to tolerate it, but I just usually stay safe and say NO. The glaring exception to this would be Macallam or a couple of other Scotch's where the peat covers the grape well.

 

I have relatives like this.  They can drink scotch by the pint with no effect - BUT, a couple swallows of wine, and we have to (almost) tie them down.  As Steve from the Left Coast says, "Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folx . . ."  I spent a solid 15 years testing the port offerings (about 1980-2000) when I stopped buying in bulk as the lead time for vintage port was about 15-20 years, and my age suggested I'd not live long enough to drink most of the latest stuff in the basement.  I find bourbon much more forgiving, flexible, and cost-benefit-wise appealing.

 

AND, what Joe said although I only got to taste the second SBHHSS.

[smokinjoe]

1 hour ago, fishnbowljoe said:

I've only had three (four) finished bourbons that I can recall right off hand, so my experience with these is pretty limited. As far as those that I've had; I bought a bottle of Woodford Reserve Masters Collection Sonoma Cutrer when I first got into bourbon. It absolutely sucked.  Newbie mistake.  I've purchased a couple of bottles of Angel's Envy over the years. I like it well enough, but the price is a bit questionable IMHO. I usually see it on the shelf around where I live in the upper $40.00 price range. There are a whole bunch of other things I'd rather spend my money on at better prices. I more than likely will never buy another bottle for that factor alone. And last, but certainly not least, our two SBHHSS bottlings. Both were absolutely awesome.   

 

Biba! Joe

That Sonoma Cutrer went beyond “absolutely sucked” IMO, Joe.   It was positively hideous!  

[fishnbowljoe]

Just now, smokinjoe said:

That Sonoma Cutrer went beyond “absolutely sucked” IMO, Joe.   It was positively hideous!  

 

What can I say Joe?   And yes I positively agree with you. When I tried my first pour, my immediate thought was "WTF is this s**t?!" 

 

Biba! Joe

[smokinjoe]

21 minutes ago, fishnbowljoe said:

 

What can I say Joe?   And yes I positively agree with you. When I tried my first pour, my immediate thought was "WTF is this s**t?!" 

 

Biba! Joe

Me, Too.  My palate and opininions can be very forgiving towards most things, but I still can’t figure out how their tasting panel thought that it was anything more than awful.  Though, my neighbor did like it, and sought it out...But, he’s a S-C wine fan who grew up in that area...So, I think he was biased...and sick...

[fishnbowljoe]

1 minute ago, smokinjoe said:

Me, Too.  My palate and opininions can be very forgiving towards most things, but I still can’t figure out how their tasting panel thought that it was anything more than awful.  Though, my neighbor did like it, and sought it out...But, he’s a S-C wine fan who grew up in that area...So, I think he was biased...and sick...

 LMFAO!  

 

It's hell getting old. For the life of me, I really can't remember if I poured the rest of that crap out, or ended up gifting it to someone here that wanted it. IIRC, I think I poured it down the drain, and maybe it was the WRMC 4 grain that I gifted to someone, or donated to the cause. 

 

 

Biba! Joe

 

 

 

[wadewood]

I think secondary cask finished bourbons can be enjoyable whiskies.  They are no longer class type bourbon but legally class type 641 - Whiskeys Specialties.  I also think the very short time in the secondary cask is more about just getting the other liquid in the bourbon than anything else.  The same thing can be accomplished by just adding some cognac or whatever directly to a barrel of bourbon and letting and age/marry.  

I know one player in this business recharges their secondary barrel by pouring more of the original liquid back in barrel so they can reuse the used barrel over and over.

[CB.]

I didn't mind the belle mead cognac deal, but man do I despise port finish. Angels Envy has an almost cult following. I think its horrendous. 1792 is tolerable, but its like I'm drink bourbon out of an unwashed wine glass

 

To each their own

[musekatcher]

7 hours ago, CB. said:

but its like I'm drink bourbon out of an unwashed wine glass

 

To each their own

I think that's what seemed gimmicky.  "Finished" in a second barrel, with some wine dregs left to flavor the whiskey, seems like an expensive addition when I can add a few drops of wine to a glass of bourbon for the same effect, lol. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by musekatcher

[Hop]

I've bought and tried several finished bourbons but stopped all that last year.  I simply haven't found any that I tried and thought "that's really good" or even good enough for me to move away from straight bourbon.  I've given away, poured out, and recently eliminated another at a tasting I held where several people really seemed to enjoy the finished bourbon but it's just not me.  

 

It took me a several hundred $ lessons to learn this but I've now learned it and pass on all finished bourbons.  In fact I passed on HWMWND at retail this week.