Less folk lore, more facts on wheated grain bills

[Paddy]

:toast:^^^^^^^^^Great link, and very well played!^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[squire]

Ah yes. Squire, I think you may have misinterpreted the focus of my comment. . . . .

Oh that's entirely possible. The only consistency about my comments is I believe them to be accurate when posted, while reserving the right to revise and extend my remarks in the future.

I believe the Old Timers were very scrupulous about keeping their jug yeasts from mutating or becoming contaminated. I think the shifting profiles of the Bourbon we enjoyed back in the 1960s, 70s and early 80s compared to the ones made today is primarily due to changing production techniques, principally higher off the still proofs and barrel entry proofs. There is also some chemistry involved in the transition period to reduce potential carcinogens, also create product to suit perceived consumer preferences for lighter profiles generally.

Nope, they don't make 'em like they used to, but what they make today is cleaner, more refined and arguably better quality controlled than what we had in the past. Modern production techniques are cost efficient in a way that allows Heaven Hill to supply me with a very acceptable entry level product, or with an Evan Williams Single Barrel, Parker's Heritage, Elijah Craig Barrel Proof, plus a host of others from the same mashbill. Just pick my price point and with Heaven Hill when you pay more you get more.

[Josh]

I've been trying to get support for a project to place vineyards and a winery on Mars. I think a distillery would be a great addition to that project. Wouldn't a still work differently on Mars though? Don't they have a different boiling point there?

[Leopold]

did not mash under pressure

I think that whiskey fans don't understand how big of a deal this is. Very sharp of you to point this out.

[The Black Tot]

Makes you wonder why cooperages aren't taking a shot at replicating the SW barrel style.

...not that they have to of course, when they're running in the red with everything flying out the doors no matter WHAT they do...but still. It would be a great angle for a small distillery.

[Harry in WashDC]

Also, what kind of warehouse, brick, masonry, metal clad, heated, sited on top of the ridge or down in the valley, what floor, whether the windows are open or closed, quite a lot of variables.

A. Smith Bowman's warehouse is like that. It is a former factory storage area - brick walls, metal (?) roof, no windows. They stack the barrels on end four-high. "They" tell me there is a part of the warehouse in which barrels mature "better" than the rest of the space. I believe it.

[TheSkinFlautist]

... principally higher off the still proofs and barrel entry proofs.

So much this. There is no need to come off the still at 140° and in fact common sense should dictate this, nevermind the doctoral chemistry degrees these guys have as well as every case study ever conducted on flavor as it correlates to barrel entry proof.

... chemistry involved in the transition period to reduce potential carcinogens,

Please go on. I have heard tell of such things but know no specifics other than what I haved presumed which is that important flavor compound are filtered out?

[Flyfish]

Nope, they don't make 'em like they used to, but what they make today is cleaner, more refined and arguably better quality controlled than what we had in the past. Modern production techniques are cost efficient in a way that allows Heaven Hill to supply me with a very acceptable entry level product, or with an Evan Williams Single Barrel, Parker's Heritage, Elijah Craig Barrel Proof, plus a host of others from the same mashbill. Just pick my price point and with Heaven Hill when you pay more you get more.

Probably the most elegant statement I can recall in the ongoing debate between the Ancients and the Moderns.

[amg]

So much this. There is no need to come off the still at 140° and in fact common sense should dictate this, nevermind the doctoral chemistry degrees these guys have as well as every case study ever conducted on flavor as it correlates to barrel entry proof.

They do it in part *because* it produces a less flavorful (a.k.a. "smoother") whiskey, which has been what a lot of casual drinkers (i.e. most of the market) seem to enjoy.

[TheSkinFlautist]

I think that whiskey fans don't understand how big of a deal this is. Very sharp of you to point this out.

Please elaborate. I apologize for the endless questions but I love learning this stuff.

[TheSkinFlautist]

I've been trying to get support for a project to place vineyards and a winery on Mars. I think a distillery would be a great addition to that project. Wouldn't a still work differently on Mars though? Don't they have a different boiling point there?

The mean atmospheric pressure on Mars is 0.087 psi or 4.49919913 mmHG (millimeters of mercury) which is 0.6% of Earth's. Vis-à-vis the boiling points of both pure water and ethanol on Mars would be approximately -5°C and -20.1°C respectively. At first glance that would seem to make the distilation of spirits as we know it impossible. However, to make those numbers relevant to our brand of distilation one needs to take into account surface temperatures of which the year-round average is -55°C (-67°F) though may vary from -133°C (-207°F) in the winter to 27°C (80°F) in the summer. This means to me that while distilation of spirits on Mars is possible, it does not present a viable environment for the maturation of quality whiskey. That said, I ain't a doctor and have no idea how those temperatures might effect the barrel or movement of whiskey through its pores.

They do it in part *because* it produces a less flavorful (a.k.a. "smoother") whiskey, which has been what a lot of casual drinkers (i.e. most of the market) seem to enjoy.

That's... disapointing.

[TunnelTiger]

Threads like this are why I enjoy this site so much.

I get it that the barrel imparts/affects flavor more than other elements but does that mean a barrel harvested from oak in Al might make a totally different bourbon than one from oak harvested in Oh?

[TheSkinFlautist]

Threads like this are why I enjoy this site so much.

I get it that the barrel imparts/affects flavor more than other elements but does that mean a barrel harvested from oak in Al might make a totally different bourbon than one from oak harvested in Oh?

[tanstaafl2]

Yes, and to take that a step further, old growth vs new growth oak makes a difference as well. The old growth oak, which was more plentiful back in the day, has larger pores than the new growth used for today's barrels and that has a theoretical effect on both final flavor and the speed at which the whiskey matures due to the ability of whiskey and oxygen to flow more freely in and out of those pores.

i.e.: Compass Box Spice Tree (OG Dump)

[flahute]

If you have any confidence in the results of the BT Single Oak Project it would seem that top and bottom of the same tree can even make a difference.

Beat me too it.

[Harry in WashDC]

They do it in part *because* it produces a less flavorful (a.k.a. "smoother") whiskey, which has been what a lot of casual drinkers (i.e. most of the market) seem to enjoy.

For those of you who read EVERYTHING on the Board, harken back to a thread, now misty in my mind, on which I posted a note about a conversation I had with a Brown Forman rep in the 1970s. This was exactly what BF was going for with their Frost 880 white whiskey. Now that the market is more sophisticated, such products do sell. Not that I buy them. Well, I do have a couple.

[squire]

Admire your restraint Harry, my Frost and related stuff was consigned to the punch bowl long ago.

[tanstaafl2]

For those of you who read EVERYTHING on the Board, harken back to a thread, now misty in my mind, on which I posted a note about a conversation I had with a Brown Forman rep in the 1970s. This was exactly what BF was going for with their Frost 880 white whiskey. Now that the market is more sophisticated, such products do sell. Not that I buy them. Well, I do have a couple.

Reminds me of the excerpt from his book that Chuck posted on his website recently.

[tanstaafl2]

Duplicate but won't let me delete.

[fishnbowljoe]

Duplicate but won't let me delete.

Fixed Bruce. At least after some trials and tribulations.

Joe

[Flyfish]

If you have any confidence in the results of the BT Single Oak Project it would seem that top and bottom of the same tree can even make a difference.

The number of possible permutations must approach infinity when you consider the way that staves get all jumbled up before assembly into barrels. What are the chances that any given barrel would get put together with staves all from the same part of the same tree? Little wonder that the "same" distillate can vary so much. The real wonder is that profile consistency is maintained so well.

[smokinjoe]

The number of possible permutations must approach infinity when you consider the way that staves get all jumbled up before assembly into barrels. What are the chances that any given barrel would get put together with staves all from the same part of the same tree? Little wonder that the "same" distillate can vary so much. The real wonder is that profile consistency is maintained so well.

I don't think it's a wonder at all. I would guess, quite the opposite. I would think the random and jumbled nature of the stave selection in coopering would be a benefit in helping provide consistency.

[smokinjoe]

Bingo. If you taste the same mashbill with different yeast, they can taste completely different.

Fascinating, if short, discussion here from the SB Archives:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?2760-Making-Yeast

I feel that I can discuss the bourbon making process with a fair degree of competence, and can understand most of what I hear from those who do it. Except, when it comes to the yeast part. I get why it's needed, but that's about it. I don't think I'm alone in my ignorance. Part, science. Part, art. Part, magic. In life, I have found that the worth and value in something is typically found in those things that only few understand or can duplicate. I think yeast may be that golden nugget in bourbon making.

[Flyfish]

I don't think it's a wonder at all. I would guess, quite the opposite. I would think the random and jumbled nature of the stave selection in coopering would be a benefit in helping provide consistency.

You are right, Joe. I am guilty of faulty and/or absent transition. What I meant was, considering all the variables in the bourbon-making process (not just variations in the barrels themselves), the ability of distillers to maintain a profile over time is rather impressive. A well-known Scotch even brags that it "never varies." When a bourbon goes NAS and still manages to keep its profile, you have to give credit.

[Harry in WashDC]

Reminds me of the excerpt from his book that Chuck posted on his website recently.