EC12 or ECSmB

[kjbeggs]

I went ahead and picked up 3 of about a dozen 750s I saw on the shelf today. Quite a few "handles" there as well.

I'd have grabbed a few more, but want to check some stores I know had the old label (12 on front) first. 

I know it's the same juice, I'd just prefer that old label if i'm going to bunker several bottles.

[Hop]

I've got a few of the 750's as well as 4 "handles" on hand with the age statement bunkered just cause I don't want to miss out on this like I did some of the others like OWA in the past...

Like some others I'm looking forward to the younger version to see how it tastes as I think an 8-12 year old batching of EC could be a very good whiskey.  Hope they mark the "batch" numbers on these so if we find one we like we can stock up

[KyleCBreese]

Decided to pick a bottle up today with the Red 12. There were a few handles there as well. I passed for now. 

[Paddy]

Speaking of quick...

I was in a fine purveyors shop in Ashland earlier today.  The manager and I were discussing this very topic (among many other very important issues of the day), when he decided to go ahead and open up the case of EC he had received this morning.  Well, no 12 on the front as expected, but we were both shocked to see that his shipment was the 'newest' of the new label, with no age statement on the back! 

So, I guess that just happened in about the past 24 hours...  As I'm not that quick to embrace change, let's just say that he had as many when I left as he did when I came...

Anyhoo, I ended up stopping at a couple of other stores while in town and did find a couple of the original (big red 12 year on the front label) bottles.  I ended up taking one for me and left one behind for the next guy... just for old times sake. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Paddy

[b1gcountry]

I dislike how oaky ec12 is, but like it otherwise. I might enjoy a 10yr ec better.

[The Black Tot]

Well, this is certainly the last time we let anyone tell us that moving the age statement to a less prominent place is no indication of a transition to NAS.

[smokinjoe]

Now, to see what's in store for the Evan Williams 12 yr 101 Red Label.  

[starhopper]

2 hours ago, The Black Tot said:

Well, this is certainly the last time we let anyone tell us that moving the age statement to a less prominent place is no indication of a transition to NAS.

For me, once a distiller moves the age statement to a less prominent location, the distiller is sending a clear signal that age is no longer going to be their focus.  It's only a matter of time before it's removed altogether - no matter WHAT their public relations folks try to convince us otherwise. 

Edited January 22, 2016 by starhopper

[Auracom]

Sku's latest blog post about this hit the nail on the head. Heaven Hill straight up lied, and while we all expected this to happen, that doesn't give them justification for not being more open about their intentions when they changed the front label a year ago. 

EC was my favorite bottling for a long time. It's just not the same without the age statement. I will never buy this NAS bullshit based on principles alone.

[GAbiker]

42 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

Now, to see what's in store for the Evan Williams 12 yr 101 Red Label.  

I picked up 3 bottles of the EW12 101 Red Label last spring.  Sorry to say I haven't opened one yet.  And I saw several bottles of the Polaris EC12 locally recently.  Wonder if I should go back and pick up a couple.  EC12 isn't my fav pour, but for the price has always been a bottle I recommend to people just getting into bourbon.

[smokinjoe]

24 minutes ago, Auracom said:

Sku's latest blog post about this hit the nail on the head. Heaven Hill straight up lied, and while we all expected this to happen, that doesn't give them justification for not being more open about their intentions when they changed the front label a year ago. 

EC was my favorite bottling for a long time. It's just not the same without the age statement. I will never buy this NAS bullshit based on principles alone.

"When the ships come back from slaughter, and the
      troops march home from war;
When the havoc strewn behind us threats the road
      that lies before,
Every hero shall be welcomed, every orphan shall
      be fed,
By the man who stuck to business, by the man who
      kept his head."
 

Let's keep our heads.  Shit happens in love, war...and whiskey. 

[starhopper]

25 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

Let's keep our heads.  Shit happens in love, war...and whiskey. 

It IS just whiskey after all. But, this is a good place to vent to others of like mind.

[kcgumbohead]

Well Joe hope the ink wasn't yet dry on that list of abbreviations 

I too am surprised at just how fast this transition has happened. There is still plenty on local shelves for the EC12 A.S. fans. I had planned on McKenna BIB 10yr as my next HH purchase as EC12 was one I felt I might prefer with a little less age. I may instead wait to see what the SBS EC12 vs. NAS shootouts reveal as I am in no hurry, I still have a 1/2 750 of the old red#12 open and I don't go to it often. 

HH could have saved themselves some trouble by just stating (on the label) at the time of the first change that they would be shifting to an 8-12 year batch. I would have preferred that to the brief flirtation with 12 then an absence of ANY number altogether weeks later.

I do hope to add a HIH BIB6yr soon so I hope that one is spared for a few more months.

[altadoc]

The writing was on the wall with the success of ECBP.  But when they re-released EC 18 (at 250% of initial price) I knew that was the nail in the coffin.

 

Why would HH continue to give us EC 12 yr when they can get 2x as much for ECBP and 6-8x for EC18?

 

But like smokinjoe said, I'm a little more partial to the Mckenna BIB at that price

[Spade]

3 hours ago, Auracom said:

Sku's latest blog post about this hit the nail on the head. Heaven Hill straight up lied, and while we all expected this to happen, that doesn't give them justification for not being more open about their intentions when they changed the front label a year ago. 

I agree completely. They unequivocally lied. They would have been better off saying nothing when they initially changed the label last year.

Even though I'm in the camp that thinks the new 8-12 year EC could be pretty good, the new version will definitely not be a regular purchase. I'm sure I'll buy one out of curiosity, but that will probably be it for me unless I'm blown away.

I find myself buying less and less bourbon as its value advantage compared to other whiskies shrinks.

[Auracom]

2 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

Let's keep our heads.  Shit happens in love, war...and whiskey. 

Head is definitely intact... but yes I am full engulfed with pessimism right now.

If, and this is a big IF, Heaven Hill can actually deliver on their intention to increase ECBP production and keep the 12 years stated on the back... then I will gladly backtrack on my anger. But I have serious doubts that sacrificing EC12 will make much of a noticeable difference in finding ECBP on shelves.

[tanstaafl2]

That major whiskey distilleries are disingenuous in their PR/advertising practices is likely to be of little surprise to anyone on this board. Most of the big players were always at best one step up from most NDPs to begin with in that regard.

That the age statement for EC was going to disappear as expected once the label change occurred, whether it be sooner than expected or not, also is not likely much of a surprise. I think that the surprise, at least for me and perhaps unfairly so, is that it came from Heaven Hill which, rightly or wrongly, was one I generally regarded as one of the few "good guys". There certainly aren't many of those left!

I am not sure exactly what would have been the best way to handle this was. Probably saying at the time of the label change what we already knew which was the current whiskey market has forced them to reevaluate what they can sustain for the near future and the removal of the 12 year statement from the front to the back was being done as a preliminary step so that if things continued as they are the age statement could be dropped, hopefully for a short term, while available stocks are reestablished. Might even have bought them some positive PR. 

But the BS about being able to maintain the profile as the same I think is just that, BS. Everything I can think of that dropped the age statement has changed. It might truly be a change for the better in some cases but I don't find any of them to be quite the same a year or two down the road. Heck, as others have noted EC might even benefit from a slightly younger blend of whiskey to improve the profile for those who prefer a slightly less woody character. But I don't believe it will be the same as it is now.

And if EC returns relatively soon with the 12yo age statement to great fanfare at double the cost then it will be clear that this was all simply PR bullshit to move the brand to a higher price point that they didn't think they could do by simply increasing the price over time. And that will further erode any positive reputation they previously had with me. Doesn't mean that I will think of them as any worse than any other producer. I will still buy HH products when they make something that interests me at a price I am willing to pay. They will simply be an equal player down in the morass with all the rest of them.

Perhaps they always were.

[starhopper]

12 minutes ago, Auracom said:

Head is definitely intact... but yes I am full engulfed with pessimism right now.

If, and this is a big IF, Heaven Hill can actually deliver on their intention to increase ECBP production and keep the 12 years stated on the back... then I will gladly backtrack on my anger. But I have serious doubts that sacrificing EC12 will make much of a noticeable difference in finding ECBP on shelves.

Did Heaven Hill officially state that they were discontinuing the EC12 so as to increase the ECBP production?

Edited January 22, 2016 by starhopper

[Auracom]

3 minutes ago, starhopper said:

Did Heaven Hill officially state that they were discontinuing the EC12 so as to increase the ECBP production?

From Minnick's article - "The Elijah Craig Barrel Proof product will keep its 12-year-old age statement and there are no plans to remove it, officials said. The company said the Barrel Proof will see “a little more availability.“"

Maybe I'm/we're reading too much into and EC12 nixing is to enhance the volume for EC18 (and older). Who knows.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Auracom

[tanstaafl2]

3 minutes ago, starhopper said:

Did Heaven Hill officially state that they were discontinuing the EC12 so as to increase the ECBP production?

The company line, as reported by Fred Minnick and others by now, was that because of this change the ECBP will see "a little more availability". Parse that as you will!

Likely initially the flippers are likely to push harder on scooping this up meaning it will probably be no more available than it currently is and may well be worse.

But then again I am an optimist...

[Auracom]

1 minute ago, tanstaafl2 said:

But then again I am an optimist...

Between your positivity and my negativity, we have brought balance to the force.

[tanstaafl2]

Another interesting side effect is the report Fred Minnick made that this change also means the EC private barrel program will be returning. I wonder what the odds will be of seeing any barrels close to 12yo being included as an option.

Not that age is everything as has been proven many times when picking private barrels.

[smokinjoe]

There seems to be multiple options available to those who favor the brand as 12 year age stated:

Buy any EC12 (Red 12 label) currently available.  Multiple reports from multiple areas of those still being on shelves.

Buy any EC12 (Small Batch label) currently available.  Same condition as above.

Buy any EC that becomes available as soon as it hits your market.  As many have guessed, the "quality/profile" will be very close to what you should be use to with current iteration.

Buy any ECBP (12 yr) as they are released.  Tight availability, but with "a little more availability" in future.

Buy EC barrel when Private Barrel Selection program starts for it.  Request older barrels and/or pick the best whiskey.

 

There is still time to act, so start filling your bunkers fellas.  Or, simply just find something else to drink.  There is a similarly priced, 10 yr old, Single Barrel, Bottled in Bond, 100 proof, with the same mashbill, Heaven Hill bourbon just waiting for you. 

 

See? It ain't so bad.  And, Heaven Hill ain't bad people.  Actually, speaking from first hand experience, they are the best of people.  The Goodest of the Good Guys.    They maybe didn't play this the best for whatever reason, but I see no reason to throw out 80 years of stellar work and a stellar reputation on this little hiccup. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by smokinjoe

[jeffrey r]

35 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

See? It ain't so bad.  And, Heaven Hill ain't bad people.  Actually, speaking from first hand experience, they are the best of people.  The Goodest of the Good Guys.    They maybe didn't play this the best for whatever reason, but I see no reason to throw out 80 years of stellar work and a stellar reputation on this little hiccup. 

 

 

Good points all around Joe, but I'll pinpoint this point.  For any of us around here that benefited from the SB HHSS barrels, I would think that should have garnered HH a good chunk of goodwill from us.  I don't know if those barrels have quite hit legendary status, but I know how good they were/are, I know what I've read about them in commentary on other sites, and they are very highly regarded and highly sought after bottles of bourbon.  Fortunately, I have a few bottles left, as I think they are amazing. 

Yeah, this is a bummer, but people in the know can alleviate the problem right now.  There should still be plenty of 12 year EC out there for at least a little while longer.  I need to decide if I want to supplement my few bottles of store selected single barrels of EC12 with some of the retail small batch 12 year.  The single barrels are outstanding, and probably hard to beat.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  The EC12 always had a nice niche at 12 years/94 proof, even with the Mckenna BIB at 10/100, and EWSB around 10/86.6 (of course, now the EWSB is closer to 8, so that paradigm has shifted).  At 8-12 (in theory)/94, it will be interesting to see where ECSmB will fit in.
 

[tanstaafl2]

2 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

See? It ain't so bad.  And, Heaven Hill ain't bad people.  Actually, speaking from first hand experience, they are the best of people.  The Goodest of the Good Guys.    They maybe didn't play this the best for whatever reason, but I see no reason to throw out 80 years of stellar work and a stellar reputation on this little hiccup. 

OK, maybe they aren't in the morass with the rest of them quite yet even if they didn't play this one the best this time!

But they did take a small step in that direction even if it was perhaps a baby step. And as the ground gets more and more slippery the closer one gets to the morass it gets harder and harder to step back in the other direction...