EC12 or ECSmB

[Harry in WashDC]

Quote

 

I wonder if ghe reason the roll-out looks a little sloppy is because this was a squabble between the marketers and the Distiller team - the marketers wanting to sell upscale to take advantage of the current market and the Distiller team trying to keep quality of established products up (volume vs. high-margin & it turned out they couldn't do both).  If initial sales projections got exceeded (i.e., demand for the special products was greater than expected while demand for the basic products did not fall off as expected), some in-house group probably got told that the business model will be adjusted again.  It could happen.

[jeffrey r]

A couple of other points I was just brainstorming.  HH is actually interesting, in that they don't have a heck of a lot of premium offerings.  EWSB, HMcK BIB and EC12 are really the core that you think of when you think of HH (ECBP and older EC aside, and of course their cheaper offerings like the BIB's, EWB, etc.).  In contrast, take BT for example.  Above their core offerings like BT and ER10, they have the EHT line, Stagg Jr., Hancock's, RHF, Blanton's (putting aside BTAC).  So there you have a much larger selection of "premium" offerings, and virtually all those BT offerings are NAS, and we generally give that a pass because the proof is in the pudding and many or most of these releases have been bringing it lately.

So here is HH that even through this boom, has been pumping out tons of EC12, HMcK BIB and EWSB, all age stated and generally $30 or less.  And I suppose it has finally caught up with HH, as evidenced by this EC situation, and of course the drastic reduction in age of the EWSB. What are you going to do?  They're a business, and will do that they feel they need to do.  Unfortunately, as evidenced by the latest EWSB offerings, there will likely be a reduction in quality.  So we as the consumer can make our own choices.  I won't buy new EWSB at 8 years.  I have plenty of EWSB at 10+ years, and I love it.

In any case, I guess I am both arguing that we should cut HH some slack, while also reserving the right to vote with our pocketbook if we are not happy with what they are putting out.  Time will tell.

[petrel800]

I was thinking the same thing.  You wonder if there was an internal fight and compromise regarding the label and age statement.  It's quite possible they wanted to pull it 8 months ago, but a compromise was made to keep it for now and continue to monitor the trends in the market.  Here we are 8 months down the road and the conclusion is that we either drop the age statement or prepare for rolling black outs on shelves.  I'm not going to fault them for that.

I also don't get the "HH lied" stuff.  I have yet to find a quote saying that when the label changed that the 12 years would never change.  Show me that quote and that's a bold faced lie I could get behind.  The quote Sku uses on his website talks about making decisions in real time.  I will stand corrected if someone can show me a true lie where they claim that the age statement was going to be there forever.  

I also don't really agree with the whole quality drops off argument.  I still contend Weller Antique NAS has improved over some of the last few years of the 7 year stuff.  Barton BIB still remains excellent, I can tell little difference between the NAS and the AS.  4RSB continues to have a similar profile bottle to bottle, all of them great, with no age statement and a likely range of 7-12 years between the barrels going into them.  Sure, if they start dumping a majority of 4 year old bourbon in these bottles, I'm sure the quality will suffer, but 8-12 years and a variance of barrels from multiple aging warehouses is plenty of variety to maintain a profile.

From a business stand point, it also won't bother me if 2 years from now a 12 year release occurs at $50 or $60 or even $100.  A 12 year old bourbon at $30 doesn't make sense in this market.  Sure it's nice while it lasted, but demand dictates that it is not a good business decision to continue to sell a product at a price below market equilibrium.

 

 

[flahute]

3 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

There seems to be multiple options available to those who favor the brand as 12 year age stated:

Buy any EC12 (Red 12 label) currently available.  Multiple reports from multiple areas of those still being on shelves.

Buy any EC12 (Small Batch label) currently available.  Same condition as above.

Buy any EC that becomes available as soon as it hits your market.  As many have guessed, the "quality/profile" will be very close to what you should be use to with current iteration.

Buy any ECBP (12 yr) as they are released.  Tight availability, but with "a little more availability" in future.

Buy EC barrel when Private Barrel Selection program starts for it.  Request older barrels and/or pick the best whiskey.

 

There is still time to act, so start filling your bunkers fellas.  Or, simply just find something else to drink.  There is a similarly priced, 10 yr old, Single Barrel, Bottled in Bond, 100 proof, with the same mashbill, Heaven Hill bourbon just waiting for you.

I have exercised all these options thus far (well, the ones that are currently available). I will also be spending a lot more time with Mr. McKenna, which is not a downgrade.

Life is still good.

And my bunker fuller. (Which circles back around to the above comment about life being good).

[Spade]

51 minutes ago, petrel800 said:

I also don't get the "HH lied" stuff.  I have yet to find a quote saying that when the label changed that the 12 years would never change.  Show me that quote and that's a bold faced lie I could get behind.  The quote Sku uses on his website talks about making decisions in real time.  I will stand corrected if someone can show me a true lie where they claim that the age statement was going to be there forever.  

From my perspective the lie was that moving the 12 off the front of the body was entirely about aesthetics and was unrelated to any future plans to drop the age statement. This was clearly B.S. as the time, but that doesn't mean it wasn't dishonest. There's a difference between PR and marketing compared to outright mendacity.

I think tanstaafl2 nailed it a few posts back — HH had, at least in the minds of some, a reputation of being "one of the good guys." Maybe that was just marketing all along, but I don't think so.

[Charlutz]

I don't know that it was a lie and the semantics of lie or not won't change my buying habits. I like EC12 a lot as is and will buy a 'handle' or 2 of the twelve year age stated bottles as insurance against the flavor or price changing. I like the flavor and may or may not like the new younger version more, but I'll have to wait and see. ECBP is one of my favorites and I'll continue to buy that when I see it. 

 

I see see the removal of the 12 as dipping the toe in the water to see how the public would react. My conclusion is that aside from the fervent audience on sites like this the general bourbon buying public didn't much care. It's not a premium offering and sales probably stayed steady. We consider it a value bottle here. Based on facts like that, HH quickly moved to dropping the age statement altogether and lowering the age of the product. So, it seems silly to go through the charade of changing the label for a short time before changing the product, but maybe it wasn't intended at all. They just reacted to the facts. 

I'll continue to do what I always do - seek out good bourbon at appropriate prices and drink it, stocking up when I see something that is hard to come by. 

[starhopper]

3 hours ago, Charlutz said:

I'll continue to do what I always do - seek out good bourbon at appropriate prices and drink it, stocking up when I see something that is hard to come by. 

With THAT in mind, found three OGDBiB Orange cap 1Ltr bottles for $19.95 each today - bought all three and am enjoying one now! Damn, this is good stuff!

Edited January 23, 2016 by starhopper

[smokinjoe]

As Harry and Petrel offer, I agree there was something awry within Heaven Hill on how to deal with this, and the results showed that.  Obviously, it was not handled in the best manner.  But, it's reckless overkill to fly off the handle and suggest malice "lying" from a reputable firm like HH, as SKU and others claim. 

Edited January 23, 2016 by smokinjoe

[Paddy]

My thought:  Buffalo Trace can't keep NAS products on the shelves, but Heaven Hill drops an age statement on a product that has always been on the shelf.  Maybe, so that it may continue to remain on the shelf for our viewing pleasure?

Buffalo Trace drops an age stated product line in full, but releases new product lines with costs that are easily 2-3x the price of the formerly available product.  Meanwhile, liquor stores continue to receive shipments of both age stated (until it runs out) and NAS EC without missing a beat. 

Current situation:  ETL (when I can find it) costs anywhere from 33-50% more than it did two years ago.  Hancock's is available maybe once a quarter.  Blanton's shows up about 1/2 the time, but costs anywhere from $55-62.  RHF shows up about once a quarter and usually runs $50-55.  AAA10* (the holdover value pour of the #2 mash) has turned into a freaking now extinct dinosaur,. 

Whereas, EC is everywhere I go, everyfreakinday, and still under $30.  HMBIB is also everywhere I go, everyfreakinday (also still under $30).  EWSB is still a younger age stated version of its former self at under $30 a pop (and available everyfreakinday).  Additionally, just yesterday, I passed no less than three cases of age stated HHBIB at anywhere from $10.50 to $13.00 a pop.  Oh yeah, all the other usual suspects (EWBIB, OF BIB and Dant BIB) were there as well... for what that's worth... 

Conclusion:  I'm not quite ready to throw HH under the bus.  God bless 'em, they're trying!       

[BigPapa]

I love EC12 19.99 a bottle in my area!!!

[holdtheice]

I've been drinking Bourbon and single malts with more than a passing interest for quite a few years now, but for whatever reason I've never got around to buying a bottle EC12. News of the age statement being dropped has led me to pick up a bottle. Suppose I could have grabbed more, but I just wanted to be able to try it at some point in the future in it's pre-neutered form. Plus, standard bottles are at least $70 each in Australia, so it's not quite the value for money champion that it is for folks in the states.  

On another note, talk from HH that the NAS version will be composed of 8-12 year old bourbon means nothing. If that's the case, put an 8 year age statement on the label. Without it, they can (and will, in my opinion) add younger bourbon to the blend as and when they wish. As it is, a meaningful age statement has been replaced with the meaningless term "small batch". I get that Bourbon is booming right now, most drinkers do, but if companies want differentiate themselves from competitors, why not do so on the basis of greater transparency?

[Louisiana]

This statement gives me no assurance with Heaven Hill. "Elijah Craig Barrel Proof Bourbon will stay at 12-years-old for now."

The last 2 words allow them to do whatever they want five seconds after that statement. Very vague on their part.

In a time where transparency is wanted, everything gets more and more cloudy.

I'm fine with change. That is what producers have to do sometimes. Just be honest about this stuff for the few people that actually care about it.

[petrel800]

1 hour ago, Louisiana said:

This statement gives me no assurance with Heaven Hill. "Elijah Craig Barrel Proof Bourbon will stay at 12-years-old for now."

The last 2 words allow them to do whatever they want five seconds after that statement. Very vague on their part.

In a time where transparency is wanted, everything gets more and more cloudy.

I'm fine with change. That is what producers have to do sometimes. Just be honest about this stuff for the few people that actually care about it.

Not attacking you, but in this bourbon market, a true boom, what do you want them to do?  They're filling barrels as fast as they can, building rickhouses, expanding production, all while putting out new products for us.  In the end, it seems like they aren't going to win no matter what they say.  We all know old stocks are drying up.  That is no secret.  There are 3 options, discontinue the product, keep the age statement knowing they can't keep up with demand, or drop the age statement and keep rolling with what you have.  

They put out the above statement and they've being "vague" and not promising us anything.  They're vilified.

They come out and say the age statement is going away well in advance of it happening.  They're vilified and now they've told their competitors their future plans before it happens.  Why would they give out internal business decisions before it's time?  No business would tell a competitor what they were doing before they were doing it.  

They try to drag this out as long as possible to keep the age statement as long as possible.  They're vilified.

 

I just am not going to dog HH for this.  They're about as transparent as they can be.  Heck, they're the only distillery I can think of that basically filed an "enthusiats" label in the HHSS label.  They can put whatever they want in that and they have for enthusiasts.  They have been great partners for SB, for GBS, and for many other enthusiast groups.  

 

 

Edited January 29, 2016 by petrel800

[smokinjoe]

3 hours ago, Louisiana said:

This statement gives me no assurance with Heaven Hill. "Elijah Craig Barrel Proof Bourbon will stay at 12-years-old for now."

The last 2 words allow them to do whatever they want five seconds after that statement. Very vague on their part.

In a time where transparency is wanted, everything gets more and more cloudy.

I'm fine with change. That is what producers have to do sometimes. Just be honest about this stuff for the few people that actually care about it.

We all understand today's market conditions and the struggles that all of these legacy producers face with keeping up with demand.  So, I'm not sure we can reasonably expect more from HH than adding "for now".  If they didn't put that qualifier on the end, then 99% of us "people who care ", would be adding on "for now", in our own minds.   Actually, I find that addition by HH to be a refreshingly honest public statement as to their precarious supply situation with this brand.  

 

Edited January 29, 2016 by smokinjoe

[flahute]

58 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

We all understand today's market conditions and the struggles that all of these legacy producers face with keeping up with demand.  So, I'm not sure we can reasonably expect more from HH than adding "for now".  If they didn't put that qualifier on the end, then 99% of us "people who care ", would be adding on "for now", in our own minds.   Actually, I find that addition by HH to be a refreshingly honest public statement as to their precarious supply situation of the brand.  

 

This.

By saying "for now", they are giving you fair warning and time to stock up far ahead of any potential announcement that may or may not come down the road.

[Louisiana]

Sure. I have bought HH for a long time. TBO it really does not affect me for the moment. I have 2 dozen ECBP's in the bunker. Would have a lot more, but drank them. I just don't like a statement that ends with "for now". In my town it doesn't work that way. No offense to anyone. Really just my opinion. And I do appreciate everyone else's.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Louisiana

[mosugoji64]

I picked up an EC12 at a supermarket this morning and stopped by Total Wine this evening in the interest of picking up a couple more to put aside. They were already stocked with the new NAS version. Didn't take long for the new label to reach the southwest, unfortunately  

[mbroo5880i]

I haven't seen any EC12 in Indy with the 12 on the front for a while.  I am sure if I look hard enough I could probably find one.  I still see quite a few with the 12 year statement on the back.  However, I stopped at a few high volume places today that no longer have any age stated EC.  While the age statement is cool and I prefer it, it really isn't the most important factor to me.  If I sense a change in the profile such that I no longer enjoy the brand or can find other options in the price range that I prefer more, then I will just move on.

[mark fleetwood]

How about EC12nsm (not so much)?

[Phil T]

On 1/29/2016, 2:47:52, smokinjoe said:

We all understand today's market conditions and the struggles that all of these legacy producers face with keeping up with demand.   

 

I have no idea how to manage warehoused stock or grow a brand, but HH dropping the AS from EC12 because the brand is growing so fast that there is not enough 12yr old stock available to sustain the incredible growth... has me asking some simple questions.... With more then a million barrels aging, how many barrels are enough? And at some point, do you say, we can't do any more than we have already done ?

[starhopper]

7 minutes ago, Phil T said:

I have no idea how to manage warehoused stock or grow a brand, but HH dropping the AS from EC12 because the brand is growing so fast that there is not enough 12yr old stock available to sustain the incredible growth... has me asking some simple questions.... With more then a million barrels aging, how many barrels are enough? And at some point, do you say, we can't do any more than we have already done ?

There is a very good audio interview on http://whiskycast.com/ with Heaven Hill co-master distiller Denny Potter and longtime Heaven Hill executive Larry Kass about the removal of the 12 year age statement.  It's starts on the 20 minute mark of the Jan 30th 2016 Whiskycast audio and lasts about 23 minutes.  It goes into great depth on the decision making process, and offers great insight into their decision and future plans. It even has a tasting review of the new Elijah Craig NAS right after the interview.

Edited January 31, 2016 by starhopper

[Phil T]

Interesting interview,  thank you for that

[Josh]

Late to the thread, but someone did lie here. They didn't have to come out and deny that the AS was going away but they did anyway. I don't think it was Bernie Lubbers, though. If anything the decision makers completely screwed him over with little regard for what sort of hit his reputation would take when they did what practically everyone said they would do.

What ticks me off more than the lie is that they are are dropping the AS to funnel more old barrels to the overpriced beaver bourbons like EC 18, 21, 23, etc. Yes, I'm sure other distilleries have done this but it's very out of character for Heaven Hill which has built its reputation on offering great value. This whole thing has left a foul taste in my mouth when it comes to HH. This was handled very poorly.

[T Comp]

2 hours ago, Josh said:

Late to the thread, but someone did lie here. They didn't have to come out and deny that the AS was going away but they did anyway. I don't think it was Bernie Lubbers, though. If anything the decision makers completely screwed him over with little regard for what sort of hit his reputation would take when they did what practically everyone said they would do.

What ticks me off more than the lie is that they are are dropping the AS to funnel more old barrels to the overpriced beaver bourbons like EC 18, 21, 23, etc. Yes, I'm sure other distilleries have done this but it's very out of character for Heaven Hill which has built its reputation on offering great value. This whole thing has left a foul taste in my mouth when it comes to HH. This was handled very poorly.

Yep...their business and believe they don't  owe me anything. And I will always extol free market considerations but with you on this Josh. 

[smokinjoe]

6 hours ago, starhopper said:

There is a very good audio interview on http://whiskycast.com/ with Heaven Hill co-master distiller Denny Potter and longtime Heaven Hill executive Larry Kass about the removal of the 12 year age statement.  It's starts on the 20 minute mark of the Jan 30th 2016 Whiskycast audio and lasts about 23 minutes.  It goes into great depth on the decision making process, and offers great insight into their decision and future plans. It even has a tasting review of the new Elijah Craig NAS right after the interview.

Good pull on this, Hopper.  Lots of good info in that interview.