EC12 or ECSmB

[smokinjoe]

3 hours ago, Josh said:

 

What ticks me off more than the lie is that they are are dropping the AS to funnel more old barrels to the overpriced beaver bourbons like EC 18, 21, 23, etc. Yes, I'm sure other distilleries have done this but it's very out of character for Heaven Hill which has built its reputation on offering great value. This whole thing has left a foul taste in my mouth when it comes to HH. This was handled very poorly.

They still offer great value though, Josh.  EC will still be an 8-12 year product at the same price.  Larceny is a great $20 wheater.  Their BIB's are what, $12.  One, even 6 yr AS?  Rittenhouse BIB at $20.  McKenna BIB at 10 yr, 100 proof, BIB at <$30.  I understand that all of this could change tomorrow.  But, there is still plenty of bang-for-the-buck in HH whiskies.

[starhopper]

9 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

Lots of good info in that interview

Joe - I thought so too.  It's rarely as "cut and dry" as we think. Obviously, a lot of factors involved in the decision to drop the EC12 age statement. All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not the one who gets to make that decision!

[Spade]

Thanks for posting the interview! If they had been this forthcoming last year, I bet they wouldn't have ruffled as many feathers. And, if this really means the ECBP will be more readily available, I think the move is a good one.

Speaking of ECBP, what if it were labeld like Four Rose Private Selection bottles or Booker's? By that I mean, each batch wouldn't necessarily be 12 years, but the age of a given bottle is on there somewhere. I bet there's some barrels that would be great at 10 or 11 years. I don't know if this is feasible in terms of logistics for HH, but if it were it'd be really cool.

[b1gcountry]

They mentioned their dumps were 70 bbls or so for ec12. They were planning on increasing it to 200bbls with the new nas. HH considers that a small dump.

I think you can state the age for a single barrel, but you can't handle the logistics of pulling 70-200 barrels from different parts of the rick houses that are all barreled at the same time that will give a consistent flavor profile.

 

 

 

[GrPeMi]

3 hours ago, b1gcountry said:

I think you can state the age for a single barrel, but you can't handle the logistics of pulling 70-200 barrels from different parts of the rick houses that are all barreled at the same time that will give a consistent flavor profile.

Anybody know how big Booker's dumps are by comparison? They manage to explicitly state the age....

[GrPeMi]

So I just did some quick math, and came up with a number of 38,000 750 ml bottles for a 200 bbl dump. Assuming 50% angels share loss and 135 barrel proof.

That's a lot of EC!!

[mosugoji64]

On January 31, 2016 at 5:52:21 PM, Josh said:

Late to the thread, but someone did lie here. They didn't have to come out and deny that the AS was going away but they did anyway. I don't think it was Bernie Lubbers, though. If anything the decision makers completely screwed him over with little regard for what sort of hit his reputation would take when they did what practically everyone said they would do.

What ticks me off more than the lie is that they are are dropping the AS to funnel more old barrels to the overpriced beaver bourbons like EC 18, 21, 23, etc. Yes, I'm sure other distilleries have done this but it's very out of character for Heaven Hill which has built its reputation on offering great value. This whole thing has left a foul taste in my mouth when it comes to HH. This was handled very poorly.

I still have some love for HH, but I'm very disappointed in how this was handled. I also have some problems with statements in that interview:

1.) They dropped the age statement to ensure that the brand remains available. If what's on the shelf isn't what I was buying before, it's no longer available.

2.) ECBP is still 12 years old and will remain available. It's a limited, allocated release so barring luck or getting a hook-up from a friend, that's little consolation for losing something I could depend on picking up off the shelf. I've never seen ECBP on the shelf in IN or AZ. Not at MSRP, anyway.

3.) Part of the decision behind this choice was to be able to bring EC18 back. They priced me out of that one so no consolation there, either.

Also, the statements indicating that the flavor profile is better served by this move as it was too variable before seemed a bit more like a rationalization for the change rather than a reason. As I said, I still have love for HH but will be more wary of any future changes with them where I tended to have more faith in the past.

Edited February 2, 2016 by mosugoji64

[MOwhisky4me]

Since the announcement was made I've gone back and forth on how I think I'm going to deal with the situation. Elijah Craig 12 year SmB was the very first mid to upper shelf bourbon I purchased after graduating from college and getting my first real job. It's always held a special place in my memory and in my rotation. I have also discovered that my tastes lean toward bourbons that have some age behind them... EC12, WLW12, HMcKBiB, etc. Needless to say, the news didn't make me happy.

My first reaction was that I'd just stop buying EC once I could no longer find the age stated bottles. But I've softened some on that stance...

I am fortunate enough that my local stores are still stocked with age stated EC, including 1.75 bottles with the 12 year statement displayed proudly on the front! I'm stocking up and plan to buy as much as I can afford until this version disappears. I will treat this age stated stock like I do my limited releases and hard to obtain offerings... I'll drink it and enjoy it. I won't gorge on it and waste it, but I'll savor it and share it with friends and family who will appreciate it.

Then I'll buy the no age statement offering when it shows up here and judge it as I do any other bourbon that I'm trying for the first time. If I like it I'll buy more. If I don't then I'll move along and look elsewhere.

HH has to do what they need to in order to succeed against excellent competition. I don't care for this decision but I don't have much say in it either... It is what it is. I'll continue to drink good bourbon with or without Elijah Craig.

[amg]

18 hours ago, b1gcountry said:

They mentioned their dumps were 70 bbls or so for ec12. They were planning on increasing it to 200bbls with the new nas. HH considers that a small dump.

I think you can state the age for a single barrel, but you can't handle the logistics of pulling 70-200 barrels from different parts of the rick houses that are all barreled at the same time that will give a consistent flavor profile.

 

 

 

Well, the age statement only has to reflect that the *youngest* whiskey in the batch is *at least* as old as the age statement. They could still dump different-aged barrels without eliminating the age statement.

[b1gcountry]

Anyone who makes a decision on the new Nas without trying it is judging the bottle by the label, no matter how they rationalize it.

[amg]

50 minutes ago, b1gcountry said:

Anyone who makes a decision on the new Nas without trying it is judging the bottle by the label, no matter how they rationalize it.

I'm not making a judgement on the bourbon, but I am making a judgement on Heaven Hill's marketing and PR team. They really botched this transition.

[b1gcountry]

That's fair. ..

[flahute]

2 hours ago, b1gcountry said:

Anyone who makes a decision on the new Nas without trying it is judging the bottle by the label, no matter how they rationalize it.

I disagree. I very much like EC at 12 years old and I know that the addition of 8 year old barrels in the mix is going to change it. I'm not saying that I'm not going to try it and I'm not saying ahead of time that I'm not going to like it. I very well may. BUT, it's going to be different and a whiskey I consider to be in my top 5 is going away because of this.

SO, I'm deciding ahead of time that I don't like this move. It's also not the end of the world.

[Josh]

On 1/31/2016, 11:17:58, smokinjoe said:

They still offer great value though, Josh.  EC will still be an 8-12 year product at the same price.  Larceny is a great $20 wheater.  Their BIB's are what, $12.  One, even 6 yr AS?  Rittenhouse BIB at $20.  McKenna BIB at 10 yr, 100 proof, BIB at <$30.  I understand that all of this could change tomorrow.  But, there is still plenty of bang-for-the-buck in HH whiskies.

Without a doubt, Joe. Still plenty of value to be had. I just hope EC 12 is not the beginning of a change in direction at HH.

[O'DubhGhaill]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2016‎ ‎21‎:‎55‎:‎29, b1gcountry said:

Anyone who makes a decision on the new Nas without trying it is judging the bottle by the label, no matter how they rationalize it.

Agree.  I've noticed differences amongst different bottles of EC12.  I expect the NAS will be close to the 12 profile, but display differences to the 12.  Alternatively, I expect less difference from NAS bottle to NAS bottle as the blend is achieved from a wider selection of variously aged whiskey?

[B.B. Babington]

2 hours ago, O'DubhGhaill said:

Agree.  I've noticed differences amongst different bottles of EC12.  I expect the NAS will be close to the 12 profile, but display differences to the 12.  Alternatively, I expect less difference from NAS bottle to NAS bottle as the blend is achieved from a wider selection of variously aged whiskey?

To me, the NAS is like EC12 but without that distinctive edge.  Like when you're doing the blind taste test and Woodford and EC12 are easy because they are so distinctive, only now Elijah is less distinctive and moving more towards rest of the pack. 

[O'DubhGhaill]

2 minutes ago, B.B. Babington said:

To me, the NAS is like EC12 but without that distinctive edge.  Like when you're doing the blind taste test and Woodford and EC12 are easy because they are so distinctive, only now Elijah is less distinctive and moving more towards rest of the pack. 

Have you had some of the NAS?  I haven't yet, but I look forward to comparing the EC12, the ECNAS, and the 10yr McKenna head to head.

[B.B. Babington]

7 minutes ago, O'DubhGhaill said:

Have you had some of the NAS?  I haven't yet, but I look forward to comparing the EC12, the ECNAS, and the 10yr McKenna head to head.

When doing the hysteria buying enough jugs to fill a 55 gallon drum before it's all gone thing, I ran across NAS.  Went ahead and picked one up just so I could talk about it.  I've embarrassed myself in past by talking bad about things I've not seen/tasted/read only later to find it was great.  There's a lot of folks that might like NAS better than EC12; it's like EC12 but less wood.  Sometimes less wood allows more of the inherent flavors to come out.  Sort of like how 2011 GTS has less wood than previous years but now one can find more of the complexity.  But I've gone to older EC for wood, like going to Laphroig for smoke.  10 year McKenna will still beat them both in my book.  After I spent money on few jugs of EC12 I started thinking money would have been better invested in McKenna, so went out and got another bottle of that.

[O'DubhGhaill]

6 minutes ago, B.B. Babington said:

When doing the hysteria buying enough jugs to fill a 55 gallon drum before it's all gone thing, I ran across NAS.  Went ahead and picked one up just so I could talk about it.  I've embarrassed myself in past by talking bad about things I've not seen/tasted/read only later to find it was great.  There's a lot of folks that might like NAS better than EC12; it's like EC12 but less wood.  Sometimes less wood allows more of the inherent flavors to come out.  Sort of like how 2011 GTS has less wood than previous years but now one can find more of the complexity.  But I've gone to older EC for wood, like going to Laphroig for smoke.  10 year McKenna will still beat them both in my book.  After I spent money on few jugs of EC12 I started thinking money would have been better invested in McKenna, so went out and got another bottle of that.

Great to know this.  Every four weeks or so, my local store would offer EC12 for $23.  It's been a few weeks now and it is due.  I wonder if they will run this sale again - they do not have the NAS yet.  If so, I'm in for six bottles and that'll be it.

[O'DubhGhaill]

McKenna 10 BiB is hard to find here and usually $36 plus tax.  I tend to pick up EWSB for $25ish.  As long as the ECNAS is in the same price range, I'll continue to pick it up. 

[mbroo5880i]

I read on one of the blogs (breakingbourbon?) a rumor that EC12 will be re-released in September in the $45-$55 range.  It is on their release schedule so they don't state the source of the rumor. 

[DonutsNBourbon]

that would be unfortunate (or maybe fortunate for it coming back?)... but I guess they did do the same thing with EC18, pulled it and then came back and re-released it at a much higher price point.

[BigPapa]

Has anyone tried the NAS EC?

is there a comparison side by side review anywhere yet?

[tanstaafl2]

32 minutes ago, BigPapa said:

Has anyone tried the NAS EC?

is there a comparison side by side review anywhere yet?

I haven't seen it locally but I also haven't really looked. I would rather wait and try the ECNAS a year or so down the road rather than now when the barrels being blended may still be pretty close to 12yo. I think it will tell more about the profile change after they have been doing it awhile and I suspect that more younger barrels will begin creeping into the mix.

See the post just a few above this one from Babbington who I believe is reporting having tried both. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by tanstaafl2

[amg]

40 minutes ago, tanstaafl2 said:

I haven't seen it locally but I also haven't really looked. I would rather wait and try the ECNAS a year or so down the road rather than now when the barrels being blended may still be pretty close to 12yo. I think it will tell more about the profile change after they have been doing it awhile and I suspect that more younger barrels will begin creeping into the mix.

See the post just a few above this one from Babbington who I believe is reporting having tried both. 

Yeah, I suspect that a side-by-side comparison today wouldn't be very interesting. Of course, that's what Heaven Hill wants--for everyone to go out and compare them right now and declare that it tastes pretty much the same. I would expect the profile to slowly drift to where they need it to be cost-wise.