How worried are you about counterfeits?

[smokinpeace]

Did see this discussed when I searched for it but how much of a problem do you think this is?   Many of use buy bottles in the secondary market.  How nervous are you?   

[starhopper]

I have had about 10 or 12 transactions on the secondary market - all have been exemplary.  No worries here.

[Golzee]

I'm not worried because I don't use the secondary market.  I'm not going to overpay for a bourbon when there are so many other options out there.  If you can't get what you want at msrp from a store, then get something else.  Broaden your bourbon horizons instead of focusing on limited/allocated bottles.

[petrel800]

Agreed, I'm not worried about counterfeit bottles because I don't put myself in a position to have to worry about them.  

Counterfeit, tampering, fraud, breakage, shipping loss or seizure, following trucks, camping in parking lots, standing in rainy cold weather . . . seems like too much worry for a hobby.  Typically a hobby should be a calming influence on your life, but that's just my take.

 

All that said, I still think you're going to find more of this problem in the scotch and wine world.  It may be happening some in the bourbon market, but I don't think it's as wide spread as scotch and wine.  That being said, as with anything, weather it's the crown prince who just happened to email you about his $50mil that's stuck in the US, the guy on facebook with no info or references offering that killer deal $100 below market on a VW or the guy selling ocean front property in AZ . . . if it's too good to be true, it's probably too good to be true.

Edited January 15, 2016 by petrel800

[fozzy71]

40 minutes ago, Golzee said:

I'm not worried because I don't use the secondary market.  I'm not going to overpay for a bourbon when there are so many other options out there.  If you can't get what you want at msrp from a store, then get something else.  Broaden your bourbon horizons instead of focusing on limited/allocated bottles.

:yeahthat:

[dcbt]

I asked Cowdery about this not too long ago, and he basically said there isn't much to fear since there has never been a confirmed case of counterfeit bourbon bottles being resealed. 

Now I personally think the bigger risk is an unscrupulous bar or restaurant owner refilling empty LE bottles with different bourbon. 

Edited January 15, 2016 by dcbt
clarity

[smokinpeace]

I guess the main question in my mind is why are empty bottles being sold for hundreds of dollars if they are not being refilled with some other bourbon and floated out back onto the market. 

[Senor Harvey]

3 hours ago, Golzee said:

I'm not worried because I don't use the secondary market.  I'm not going to overpay for a bourbon when there are so many other options out there.  If you can't get what you want at msrp from a store, then get something else.  Broaden your bourbon horizons instead of focusing on limited/allocated bottles.

My thoughts too.

 

I do not support the secondary market. 

[koRn]

Since the only bottles I have bought on the secondary market, are an AECS 14 and a 15. And there is little demand for them. Not worried at all about getting fake juice. The rest of th3 bottles I want to drink, I've been lucky enough to find locally. 

[PaulO]

I'm worried enough about counterfeits that I wouldn't participate in the black market.  All the supplies to re-seal bottles are easily avaiable at home brewing or wine making places.

 

[chasking]

1 hour ago, smokinpeace said:

I guess the main question in my mind is why are empty bottles being sold for hundreds of dollars if they are not being refilled with some other bourbon and floated out back onto the market. 

I suspect that in many cases it's people who refill the bottles with other juice to impress their guests, rather than people filling them to re-seal and sell.  The former situation is much easier to pull off.

[fishnbowljoe]

1 hour ago, smokinpeace said:

I guess the main question in my mind is why are empty bottles being sold for hundreds of dollars if they are not being refilled with some other bourbon and floated out back onto the market. 

The postings for some of those empty bottles on a few sites (like eBay for instance) might say they're empty, but I'm pretty certain they ain't. Just sayin'. 

Joe

[berto]

I don't buy secondary bottles at secondary prices so I'm not so concerned with counterfeits.  

I've seen Asian websites offering the VW iteration of your choice in the mass quantity of your choice for extremely low prices.  I'm not sure how good their fake labels are or if they ever sell anything but they're out there offering obvious counterfeits for sale in bulk.  If they actually sell in Asia it's only a matter of time before something makes its way back here whether someone gets duped, or buys a look at me decoration for the home bar, or brings it back intending to rip off folks.  

[Grain Belt]

This may be the ultimate example of a "first world problem."  My grandpa, who drank Jim Beam bourbon and Grain Belt beer exclusively, would wonder what the hell is going on if a bottle of bourbon cost more than a couple hours of work at the paper mill.  I share this sentiment.   

[Louisiana]

43 minutes ago, Grain Belt said:

This may be the ultimate example of a "first world problem."  My grandpa, who drank Jim Beam bourbon and Grain Belt beer exclusively, would wonder what the hell is going on if a bottle of bourbon cost more than a couple hours of work at the paper mill.  I share this sentiment.   

Very good point Grain Belt.

[smokinjoe]

The next time I hear that somebody got ripped off by buying a counterfeit bottle of bourbon, will be the next time I have the greatest Schadenfreude moment of my life.

 

 

[PaulO]

I've always thought, if the dishonest person didn't get too greedy, and filled an LE bottle with a bottom to mid shelf whiskey of similar proof, and the purchaser had never tried the real thing.  How would they even know?  Probably just look at the label and say wow this is the best.

[Darwin]

It seems it can also happen in a retail outlet.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/more-lcbo-bottles-seized-by-police-after-man-buys-vodka-bottle-filled-with-water-1.3405313

[Ambernecter]

There's a huge problem in the UK with fake booze period... From Vodka, Gin, Jack Daniels, many fakes are sold to unscrupulous independent retailers/wine store owners, for a knockdown price and are (sometimes) downright lethal if consumed. 

Also. as I saw on a travel program once about India, they sell more Johnny Walker Black label than Johnny Walker make for the rest of the World in total! They said that the fake booze in India is of such high quality that it's almost impossible to tell the difference between real and fake. I guess it is their national spirit. 

I remember about 2 years ago settling down with a straight Jack Daniels, purchased from a local convenience store to watch some boxing. It was about 23.00hrs - so everything in the UK is closed. I ripped the seal, poured a nice measure and took a pull whilst settling back in the sofa - all was good in tha hood, or so I thought. Imagine my horror when it tasted all kinds of wrong!

I spat the mouthful into the kitchen sink, scratched my head and worked out it was pure apple juice from a sealed bottle. I was fuming because although the boxing was good, it'd have been much better with a generous nip of something nice!

Long story short, the next morning I went back to the same store, showed my findings to the owner who pulled a face as though I was trying to pull some kind of scam. He gave me a refund grudgingly.

The next day I nipped by the store he waved me over excitedly and told me that over 200 bottles of Jack had been returned to the same cash and carry (wholesale store) with the same problem.

Basically the crooks had drilled through the plastic lids, drawn out the Whiskey, replaced it with apple juice and melted the puncture mark on the cap to reseal the bottle. I'm just thankful it was something as obvious as apple juice because antifreeze laden fake booze can kill and I literally didn't swallow a drop of it.

 

Now in supermarkets when they check my banknote I ask for a glass to check the Whiskey is real!

 

After this incident I'm very careful about what I buy and from where. 

 

 

 

[BAO]

Very concerned. Anytime you have a product selling for 10x msrp, you're inviting fraud.  Empty bottles plus supplies cost is still WAY below secondary market. 

[fozzy71]

1 hour ago, BAO said:

Very concerned. Anytime you have a product selling for 10x msrp, you're inviting fraud.  Empty bottles plus supplies cost is still WAY below secondary market. 

Easy solution is obv don't buy from / support the secondary market.  If people would stop paying the secondary market marked up prices what do you think would happen?

[Tony Santana]

On January 15, 2016 at 10:55:18 AM, Golzee said:

I'm not worried because I don't use the secondary market.  I'm not going to overpay for a bourbon when there are so many other options out there.  If you can't get what you want at msrp from a store, then get something else.  Broaden your bourbon horizons instead of focusing on limited/allocated bottles.

Amen, brother.  I'm sure it's a problem,but I don't need to worry about it.  I suppose it could be a problem in bars too, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've bought a high end pour in a bar.

[Grain Belt]

It sounds like there are a couple different versions of possible fraud. There is the crowd that considers the $400-700+ Pappy and want it bad enough to put themselves in a bit of a potential pickle dealing with the secondary market. On the other hand, it sounds like there is some shadey things going on around the world ripping off everyday sippers of.Johnny or Jack. Both are rotten but I really feel bad for some 9 to 5er who minded his business , paid his taxes and wants a few pours on a Friday night with his fifth that he bought on the way home from work  

That being said, I believe in my local liquor store manager who is a straight shooter and I have developed a friendship with over the years .  Wild Turkey 101 is $24.99 a liter every day at my local  When it goes on sale for $21.99 my guy gives me a ring and I head down and buy a case and shoot the breeze with him for 10 minutes   He also gives me a call when he gets his Lot B allocation   I drive down and pick up 2 for retail and we shoot the breeze for ten minutes   My bourbon needs are covered and I have a good buddy in the industry that provides a service    Beyond this, what's the point?  It 's just whiskey.  What matters is pleasing the palate of myself and a few friends  Of course I also prefer to feed family and friends properly BBQ'd chicken leg quarters bought at $.39 a lb. vs. spending $220 on a standing rib roast and letting everyone in the room see the bill   Long story short, I guess that I am the guy that really appreciates the $21.99 bottle of Turkey   It suits me and my sensibilities   To each their own though   I have a bottle of Pappy 15 in my basement that I bought for $40 and am scared shitless to drink because I fantasize that a Chinese businessman is going to fly into town and offer me $1500 for it .  I suppose I could drink it and then put some Seagrams's 7 in it and still sell it to the Chinese businessman but my integrity is (possibly) worth more than that   I hope I have enough Turkey on hand so I can sip a little while contemplating this major issue. 

[The Black Tot]

Since I recently reached Bourbon Nirvana, nothing in the retail or secondary market concerns me anymore.

If something new comes out and the price is north of $60, I smile, walk outside, contemplate a tree, focus on my breathing, stretch my arms outward to welcome the universe, the clouds part, and small woodland creatures perch on my shoulders.

On secondary, even if you get a genuine bottle, it's still not a good experience. There is little upside these days.

For younger grasshoppers, I would stick to bottles which sell for figures that aren't worth counterfeiting as a strategy. Leave the white whales alone and you should be fine.

[GaryT]

I don't lose any sleep over this, as I don't buy stupid @#$%

Don't get me wrong - I appreciate the guy or gal who wants to have just one bottle of PVW, and stands virtually no shot of buying one retail, going and paying absurd amounts.  Thankfully I'm not in that camp.  Not sure I've hit the same Bourbon Nirvana as Paul (I honestly just try to avoid going into stores because I know I'm weak!), but when I miss out on BTAC or the like - I remind myself of just how much really good bourbon is still out there at a reasonable price - and it makes me appreciate those bottles I have that much more.  

Some of the bottles I consider my favorites aren't just because of the great whiskey inside, but how I got them.  I'll never forget the first ORVW I saw on a shelf in 2012 and bought, cracking open to enjoy with my Dad.  Or the first tax-stamped bottle I bought (an ND BDL for $8).  I cherish those memories almost as much as the whiskey itself.  If I'd had bought that same BDL for whatever the going rate is - it wouldn't be the same bottle or experience.