How worried are you about counterfeits?

[The Black Tot]

Looks like I'd better learn Chinese and start writing fiction.

 

I also like the description of a 1970-1972 Scotch as "worthless"  Blended or not.

Edited November 3, 2017 by The Black Tot

[jvd99]

One of the television news magazines profiled one of the Koch brothers (who are billionaires if you weren’t aware) recently.  This moron (ironically the liberal one ) bought 4 bottles of wine supposedly owned by Thomas Jefferson and signed by  Jefferson (in what looked like a sharpie no less).  Anyway, Koch linvestigated the provenance after he dropped huge money only to find out the were fake.  Koch then spent 35 Million Dollars investigating the provenance of his entire collection, a portion of which was discovered to be fake also.  His efforts resulted in the arrest of a counterfeiter who was manufacturing nearly flawless fakes that were sold to some of the most sophisticated buyers in the world.  The lesson here is that any bottle, label or seal can be duplicated by a talented counterfeiter whether it be wine, whiskey or any other valuable spirit.  Anyone thinking they can easily spot a fake on their own is fooling themselves.  I consider everything on the secondary to be fake, especially FR which can be counterfeited by a second grader with a hair dryer.  As the news story about the fake bottle of 1898 Macallan, bars are no safe space either

[The Black Tot]

The best way to know for absolute sure your bottle is not fake is to only buy bottles that are cheap enough to not be worth faking.

[Charlutz]

1 hour ago, jvd99 said:

This moron (ironically the liberal one ) bought 4 bottles of wine supposedly owned by Thomas Jefferson and signed by  Jefferson (in what looked like a sharpie no less).  Anyway, Koch linvestigated the provenance after he dropped huge money only to find out the were fake.  Koch then spent 35 Million Dollars investigating the provenance of his entire collection, a portion of which was discovered to be fake also.  His efforts resulted in the arrest of a counterfeiter who was manufacturing nearly flawless fakes that were sold to some of the most sophisticated buyers in the world

 

I saw this piece. It was on 60 Minutes. I wouldn’t call him a moron. He’s very rich and very old. I think I remember that he has no kids or wife to leave his fortune to. He’s surrounded himself with rare art and collectibles because why not? Maybe it’s not worth it to 99% of the world’s population to do what he did, but it’s his money. He also managed to put a forger in jail and protect future victims. I commend him. 

[jvd99]

1 hour ago, Charlutz said:

 

I saw this piece. It was on 60 Minutes. I wouldn’t call him a moron. He’s very rich and very old. I think I remember that he has no kids or wife to leave his fortune to. He’s surrounded himself with rare art and collectibles because why not? Maybe it’s not worth it to 99% of the world’s population to do what he did, but it’s his money. He also managed to put a forger in jail and protect future victims. I commend him. 

Apparently all it took was one phone call to the Jefferson museum, post purchase, to discover he never signed any wine bottles.  In my book, that simplistic due diligence should have been done before dropping hundreds of thousands on four bottles.  Call him what you will or not, but that was a dumb thing to do.

[Bourbonmakesmepoop]

5 hours ago, jvd99 said:

Apparently all it took was one phone call to the Jefferson museum, post purchase, to discover he never signed any wine bottles.  In my book, that simplistic due diligence should have been done before dropping hundreds of thousands on four bottles.  Call him what you will or not, but that was a dumb thing to do.

Not that dumb when your last name is Koch. Those Bros wipe their ass with 100 G’s

[PaulO]

7 hours ago, The Black Tot said:

The best way to know for absolute sure your bottle is not fake is to only buy bottles that are cheap enough to not be worth faking.

So far, that has been my strategy.  That, and I don't chase stuff on the black market.

[DCFan]

The top selling rum in Jamaica is called, Wray & Nephew White Overproof Rum.  As the name implies it's high octane.  Their bottles come with a plastic plug right inside the top of the bottle that makes for a very slow pour but also keeps the unscrupulous barkeeps from refilling the bottle with something else. This plug is such that it's damned near impossible to remove (yeah, I'm sure it's been done, thank you very much).  Has anyone heard of any other bottler that does such a thing with their product in an attempt to foil counterfeiters?

[Kane]

1 hour ago, DCFan said:

The top selling rum in Jamaica is called, Wray & Nephew White Overproof Rum.  As the name implies it's high octane.  Their bottles come with a plastic plug right inside the top of the bottle that makes for a very slow pour but also keeps the unscrupulous barkeeps from refilling the bottle with something else. This plug is such that it's damned near impossible to remove (yeah, I'm sure it's been done, thank you very much).  Has anyone heard of any other bottler that does such a thing with their product in an attempt to foil counterfeiters?

I've seen this done with other spirits in various countries, but the concern there was that people were getting killed due to methanol in bootleg counterfeits.

[jvd99]

Macallan has a little hologram on their foil. Never really looked closely at it, but at least it's something.  The lack of security measures is really amazing, especially in the scotch world, where so much money is put into packaging, you'd think a buck or two could be put towards some type of security seal.  The simple plastic shrink wrap "seals" really burn me up.  I keep harping on FR but its comical how loose, weak and fragile those things are, and not to mention anyone can buy them online and reapply them.  

[dcbt]

4 hours ago, DCFan said:

The top selling rum in Jamaica is called, Wray & Nephew White Overproof Rum.  As the name implies it's high octane.  Their bottles come with a plastic plug right inside the top of the bottle that makes for a very slow pour but also keeps the unscrupulous barkeeps from refilling the bottle with something else. This plug is such that it's damned near impossible to remove (yeah, I'm sure it's been done, thank you very much). 

 

I buy this rum to make rum punch and I always wondered about that spout, it takes some patience to pour several oz!

[The Black Tot]

You don't have to go to Jamaican rum to find this. My OWA handle has a pour restricter on it. It's not the latest bottle format, it's a script logo from about 3yrs ago though.

[DCFan]

32 minutes ago, The Black Tot said:

You don't have to go to Jamaican rum to find this. My OWA handle has a pour restricter on it. It's not the latest bottle format, it's a script logo from about 3yrs ago though.

Hey Gilligan, don't you have some barnacles to scrape, brass to polish, something useful to do? 

[DCFan]

On 11/4/2017 at 9:57 AM, dcbt said:

I buy this rum to make rum punch and I always wondered about that spout, it takes some patience to pour several oz!

You sir are a very brave man for drinking this stuff.  Reading some of the reviews on the net are a hoot. 

 

ps - I've since learned this plug is called a diffuser. It's too bad that thing doesn't help improve the taste. 

[dcbt]

3 hours ago, DCFan said:

You sir are a very brave man for drinking this stuff.  Reading some of the reviews on the net are a hoot. 

 

ps - I've since learned this plug is called a diffuser. It's too bad that thing doesn't help improve the taste. 

Hah, well it gets mixed in with seales or mgxo so it turns out ok!

[Flyfish]

On 11/3/2017 at 3:08 PM, The Black Tot said:

The best way to know for absolute sure your bottle is not fake is to only buy bottles that are cheap enough to not be worth faking.

I read somewhere that the toughest counterfeiter the Secret Service ever confronted was a guy making nickels. Nobody ever suspected. Still, I'm never worried about bourbon counterfeits because of your sage advice.

[smokinjoe]

I don't suppose anything will be done for simple counterfeiting on a small scale.  Now, if it were to be of scale that it effected the revenue collections of various levels of government, then we might see some persuasion applied from there.  Or, more quickly, if there were to be health issues/concerns/deaths resulting from tainted bottles...like the Tylenol episode several years ago.  

[GaryT]

I expect someone (maybe BT with BTAC?) will do something like the holograms.  Taking some voluntary action to promote confidence I think would be a smart move for the first mover (not that this issue is rampant, but it would differentiate them from the competition).  It would also raise the awareness more broadly, and perhaps drive others to take some action (who wants to be selling the expensive stuff in the super-easy-to-fake seals . . . looking at your FR!)  If nothing else that makes it look really expensive (not that securing the retail price is a challenge today!)

[musekatcher]

On 11/3/2017 at 12:55 PM, jvd99 said:

 The lesson here is that any bottle, label or seal can be duplicated by a talented counterfeiter whether it be wine, whiskey or any other valuable spirit.  Anyone thinking they can easily spot a fake on their own is fooling themselves. 

 

The same is true of violins, cars, apparel, swords, jewelry, paintings, folding money - anything of value, especially if it's magnitudes more in value than the new replacement.  What's really telling, is how often the counterfeiters are well respected fixtures in their areas, often museum directors, appraisers, auctioneers - it sure supports the theory that even the experts secretly believe collectable prices are driven up by superstition and fantasy. 

[jvd99]

1 hour ago, musekatcher said:

 

The same is true of violins, cars, apparel, swords, jewelry, paintings, folding money - anything of value, especially if it's magnitudes more in value than the new replacement.  What's really telling, is how often the counterfeiters are well respected fixtures in their areas, often museum directors, appraisers, auctioneers - it sure supports the theory that even the experts secretly believe collectable prices are driven up by superstition and fantasy. 

I'd like to see a counterfeit car 

[Harry in WashDC]

3 hours ago, jvd99 said:

I'd like to see a counterfeit car 

Maybe he meant "car parts".  Concourse level restorations claiming 98% original get more bids than CLRs claiming 85% original.  Be sure to check for counterfeit parts complete with hidden and "correct" OEM numbers.  Axles.  Don't forget to check the axles.

 

IIRC, counterfeit parts even for commercial aircraft have appeared from time to time.

 

WRT bar bourbon, a new restaurant/bar in our neighborhood has a nice selection of basics and top shelf at reasonable and comparable prices and a few rarities.  It took awhile for the bartender to find the price list for the rarities, and when he did, it seemed to me that $35 for a measured 2 oz. of PVW 23 was low for this market.  That worried me.

[RWBadley]

3 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

 it seemed to me that $35 for a measured 2 oz. of PVW 23 was low for this market.  That worried me.

See if they can do a half pour for 17.50

[musekatcher]

12 hours ago, jvd99 said:

I'd like to see a counterfeit car 

 

[jvd99]

52 minutes ago, musekatcher said:

Tubbs & Crockett would be all over that fakery 

[Mule Skinner]

On 1/15/2016 at 3:47 PM, chasking said:

I suspect that in many cases it's people who refill the bottles with other juice to impress their guests, rather than people filling them to re-seal and sell.  The former situation is much easier to pull off.

How meaningless must some ones life be, if they go to them extremes to try and impress some one.