How worried are you about counterfeits?

[jvd99]

I could really care less about fakes because I'm not one to drop a mortgage payment on a digital picture of a bottle I saw on the internet.  If fakes are becoming more prevalent, I support the unlucky secondary participant to admit he got "got" and post pictures, talk about it, publicize it etc. so that other dupes can learn from the mistake.  The more conversation about fakes, the more people will think twice about dropping such an extraordinary amount of money for a potentially fake product.   That's the sort of momentum shifter that could put a damper on the flippers and the bourbon secondary market.  

[dcbt]

Cowdery blogged about this yesterday, it's becoming more prevalent:

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2016/02/yes-bourbon-fraud-is-problem.html?fb_ref=Default&m=1

 

Edited February 14, 2016 by dcbt
link

[B.B. Babington]

Not been worried about it up to this point but went and checked seals on my Old Crow, one looks a little suspicious. 

[b1gcountry]

You can never be too careful. I think someone put water in my old #7.

[mbroo5880i]

I do believe it is a concern on the higher end and difficult to find whiskies, whether bourbon, rye or scotch.  Fortunately, I don't play in that arena.  However, I would be concerned if I did.  I believe Chuck's suggestions are good although he would probably agree that they are not fool proof.  It pays to know your retailer and to avoid non retailer sources.

[Tony Santana]

I trust my main retailer.  I don't buy on the secondary market.  If it tamps down the craziness on the limited editions and that has a trickle down effect, all the better.

[PaulO]

My father and a number of people I know were stationed overseas in the military.  I heard about this refilling bottles scam from them.  It wasn't even LE type stuff, but just popular brands.  It sounded to me like the poorer a country was, the more of this monkey business.  By the way, there are counterfeit cigarettes too.  The package looks just like major U.S. brands.

Chuck's article surprized me a little in that some retailers get LE bottles from the black market.

[b1gcountry]

In third world countries, you can buy some booze counterfeits that will actually kill you. Like flavored, colored denatured alcohol. I am always careful when traveling to Mexico or the Caribbean.

[jvd99]

When Cowdery and other recent commentators on this issue repeatedly warn that recreating the "seal" is a relatively simple endeavor, coupled with the prevalence of empties for sale, why would anyone trust the secondary market process and drop huge sums of money on a bottle that they can't even physically inspect?  Take a FRLE for example, the only "seal" is a cheap piece of perforated shrink wrap plastic that I'm sure you can probably get online with ease.  That's hardly a security measure - hell, some of those plastic perforations on my own FR bottles are already compromised by routine handling.  All a nefarious actor would need is the empty bottle, the shrink wrap thingy, a hair dryer and some FRYL and he'd be ready for business at an online auction or a FB group where people are apparently stumbling over each other to empty their wallets.  For me, that's enough not to wade in those waters. 

[meadeweber]

1 hour ago, jvd99 said:

When Cowdery and other recent commentators on this issue repeatedly warn that recreating the "seal" is a relatively simple endeavor, coupled with the prevalence of empties for sale, why would anyone trust the secondary market process and drop huge sums of money on a bottle that they can't even physically inspect?  Take a FRLE for example, the only "seal" is a cheap piece of perforated shrink wrap plastic that I'm sure you can probably get online with ease.  That's hardly a security measure - hell, some of those plastic perforations on my own FR bottles are already compromised by routine handling.  All a nefarious actor would need is the empty bottle, the shrink wrap thingy, a hair dryer and some FRYL and he'd be ready for business at an online auction or a FB group where people are apparently stumbling over each other to empty their wallets.  For me, that's enough not to wade in those waters. 

jvd, great points!  I'm glad that's not something I have to worry about.

[flahute]

The foil wrappers of BTAC, Van Winkle, and others have always been the harder to fake in my mind. I've been reading that even these can be done if you have the right equipment, and that equipment is supposedly out there. If this is true, the only ones I can think are still hard to fake are the ones with proprietary symbols/logos on the top such as the Stagg antlers. 

[b1gcountry]

Sounds like a good practice would be to demand the original receipt if you are going to play that game, which I'm not.

[berto]

There are retailers and bars active on the secondary market both selling and buying.  Those buying pay secondary then sell at their shop for even more.  

 

Foil wrappers and labels are easily faked for little money in Asia.  There are fake tax strips too.

 

The secondary market is like any other black market.  Youse pays your money and youse takes your chances.

[Louisiana]

For BTAC or Van Winkle purchases I have the following.

Factory boxes they were shipped in. BTAC (GTS, WLW, Saz18) letters from Buffalo Trace. Receipt of course.

My main authenticity is my connections. Their Word is Beyond Good.

[The Black Tot]

Wasn't it some surgeon general that said the best strategy against STDs and pregnancy was abstinence?

Somehow applicable here. It's certainly the best prescription for not getting f'd.

[Paddy]

1 hour ago, The Black Tot said:

Wasn't it some surgeon general that said the best strategy against STDs and pregnancy was abstinence?

Somehow applicable here. It's certainly the best prescription for not getting f'd.

You know what they say (and it sure seems applicable in this boom, where limiteds have become unicorns), abstinence does makes the heart grow fonder. 

[smokinjoe]

2 hours ago, Louisiana said:

For BTAC or Van Winkle purchases I have the following.

Factory boxes they were shipped in. BTAC (GTS, WLW, Saz18) letters from Buffalo Trace. Receipt of course.

My main authenticity is my connections. Their Word is Beyond Good.

That's nice as we all hope that our purchases through trusted retail sources are clean, but I think the point being made is that even they face the possibility of unknowingly been duped.  

[Louisiana]

2 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

That's nice as we all hope that our purchases through trusted retail sources are clean, but I think the point being made is that even they face the possibility of unknowingly been duped.  

That's really deep man. Don't know what to say to that?

I'm just trying to think more positive about the situation.

[b1gcountry]

Abstinence? I'm not looking for sainthood or anything!

[The Black Tot]

11 hours ago, b1gcountry said:

Abstinence? I'm not looking for sainthood or anything!

To be clear, I was referring to abstinence from the secondary market or from bottles expensive enough to encourage fraud.

Not abstinence from whiskey.

Even saints drink wine with communion.

[ken_mays]

I'm not the guy who will purchase a limited bottling at a high premium.  I'm long past the point of caring about impressing anyone with what I buy.  The last thing I bought was a bottle of THH at about $100 last year.  I bought it because I drink it and drank it long before the current bubble went ballistic.  If I can't get it anymore I'll find a reasonable substitute. 

 

In the past I've bought a few rare-ish things at the distillery gift shops. I may still do that, but the retail situation in general is so crazy that I want no part of it.  

 

Schadenfreude seems like a good way to describe how I feel about people being victimized by fakes when they don't know why they're chasing what they're chasing.  There are a few exceptions, but for the most part, I find that most of the folks who've had these ridiculously priced offerings B.C.  (Before Craze) cannot justify paying secondary market prices for the stuff and would rather spend the money on good product that is still reasonable. 

[b1gcountry]

4 hours ago, The Black Tot said:

To be clear, I was referring to abstinence from the secondary market or from bottles expensive enough to encourage fraud.

Not abstinence from whiskey.

Even saints drink wine with communion.

Well!

Just because you stopped sleeping with your wife doesn't mean I'm going to!

 

Edited February 17, 2016 by b1gcountry

[GaryT]

On 2/16/2016, 5:22:47, smokinjoe said:

That's nice as we all hope that our purchases through trusted retail sources are clean, but I think the point being made is that even they face the possibility of unknowingly been duped.  

Great point.  I think the best we can do is IMMEDIATELY open/sample purchases, and if we suspect a fake - share with friends to get a consensus   And if there IS a consensus - seriously; talk to the retailer and the distillery.  Everyone legitimately involved wants to put an end to it, and I imagine they would want to help.  Unless they suspect you just decanted that GTS and refilled it with OGD114.  

[Harry in WashDC]

News story link below - Chinese fiction writer in Switzerland paid a hotel bar $10,000 for a glass of The MacCallan Glenlivet 1878.  Turned out it was counterfeit.  Picture appears with the article.  Bloggers like us do perform a public service, sometimes.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/11/03/a-rich-chinese-writer-spent-10000-on-a-glass-of-rare-scotch-it-turned-out-to-be-worthless/?hpid=hp_rhp-morning-mix_mm-scotch%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.daff328b6cc2

[smokinjoe]

Figures.  The Swiss again...Never trust a country that won't pick a side...