Do posters mislead about their view on certain bottles

[birdie]

As we move into the season where certain LE editions are flying around and becoming harder to obtain do you take any notice of what is being posted about their value. More so than past years I see a lot of posts with "not worth it", or "easy pass" comments and the conspiracy theorist in me, which tends to come out normally 2 or 3 pours into the evening, wonders are people trying to put me off a certain LE, which means more chance they can find it themselves.

 

I saw this play out a year or so ago while I was looking at the top shelf cabinet in a Dallas liquor store, customer A was looking the at last bottle of Midleton Very Rare 2015 (I know not bourbon), which is a very nice Irish Whiskey. Customer B then spends 3 or 4 minutes letting customer A know it tastes like crap and is over priced. 

 

Customer A buys Stagg Jr, Customer B waits until he leaves and buys the Very Rare.

[PaulO]

My belief is most people here are upfront on how they feel about any given brand.  You also have to consider that tastes vary.

Which bottles do you think you are being tricked about?

[flahute]

At this point, none of the LE's make it to a shelf. Even if people were intentionally trying to throw others off the scent, it would have no impact on availability. For every person thrown off, two others have just gotten into bourbon and entered the fray.

Basically, in today's market, you have to act now when you have the chance. There is no longer time to wait for a consensus on quality to develop.

[BottledInBond]

This website represents such a tiny % of the total people out shopping for whiskey that anything said here has almost no chance of having any sort of noticeable impact on availability of any specific bottle, even if someone was trying for that sort of angle. 

 

I would also suggest that in a lot of cases quality of products has dropped while prices have almost universally risen, leading to many "easy passes" for me personally. I mean, I can promise I'm not trying to throw anyone off the scen by continually saying I pass on Blood Oath, any Orphan Barrel you'd like to reference, any new Jefferson's label, a Woodford Master's Collection bottle, Oregon BMH, and almost any "craft" products among other examples.

 

There is a lot of overpriced crap out there. Now excuse me while I go enjoy a lovely dram of this high quality and reasonably priced Bib & Tucker....... 

[garbanzobean]

9 hours ago, birdie said:

As we move into the season where certain LE editions are flying around and becoming harder to obtain do you take any notice of what is being posted about their value. More so than past years I see a lot of posts with "not worth it", or "easy pass" comments and the conspiracy theorist in me, which tends to come out normally 2 or 3 pours into the evening, wonders are people trying to put me off a certain LE, which means more chance they can find it themselves.

 

I saw this play out a year or so ago while I was looking at the top shelf cabinet in a Dallas liquor store, customer A was looking the at last bottle of Midleton Very Rare 2015 (I know not bourbon), which is a very nice Irish Whiskey. Customer B then spends 3 or 4 minutes letting customer A know it tastes like crap and is over priced. 

 

Customer A buys Stagg Jr, Customer B waits until he leaves and buys the Very Rare.

I don't think posters on SB do this at all.  If anything based on other internet forum experience, new posters might parrot the tastes of more experienced posters even if they A.) Have never tried a particular whiskey or B.) Have palate preferences for/against something that's almost universally held to be very good (ECBP, BTAC, etc) or panned for one reason or another (Orphan Barrel Project, BMH, etc).  At some point most new posters realize that no one here cares what other people drink as long as they are having fun, and they gain trust and confidence enough in their preferences to really say what they think.

 

Your scenario is possible if two customers would otherwise be fighting over a bottle in person.  I've seen plenty of underhanded crap in my life.  Personally if I found something really limited that I MUST HAVE OR I WILL LITERALLY DIE and someone else was about to buy it, I might offer to buy them something else or give them a glass/free sample as a thank you if they allow me to purchase the bottle in question.  Thankfully, having all the good whiskey isn't a matter of life or death to me at this point, so I'll probably just congratulate the person on the great find and be mad at myself for not getting there sooner.  For about 10 minutes, then I'll probably find something else shiny to distract myself with.

[Richnimrod]

Short Answer: Speaking only for myself; Never.    Guessing, based upon the knowledge of and personal experience I've had with the folx posting here (limited, of course; but, all I have to go by), also: NEVER.

[Harry in WashDC]

I don't mislead in my posts - at least that I know of.  Even in stores, I won't mislead.  Yesterday while picking up some Campari and checking the bourbon shelves for sale items, a couple on a shopping trip for a party were debating on what American whiskey to buy to go with their imported vodka, their Fireball, and their Bacardi Light.  One of them asked me, "Is Seagrams a good whiskey?"  ANS - "Not really.  What are you buying it for, cocktails only or also for sipping?"  They said they wanted a whiskey for people who like bourbon.  I suggested EW Black or EW BIB which are plentiful here. or even WT 101 if they wanted to go up in price a little.

 

I didn't think they'd pop for Blanton's @ $59. Benchmark @ $11 would have worked, but I don't know them or their bourbon friends so . . .  I did not do my 5 minute lecture, though.  Their loss.

[GeeTen]

17 minutes ago, Harry in WashDC said:

I didn't think they'd pop for Blanton's @ $59. Benchmark @ $11 would have worked, but I don't know them or their bourbon friends so . . .  I did not do my 5 minute lecture, though.  Their loss.

 

Hey Professor, I'm here for the lecture!  

 

ER10 is my go-to for newbies with bourbon-drinking friends ($26.99 OTD).  It's not my nature to mislead, tho' - in fact, sometimes I'm too honest (so I'm told) much to the displeasure of my employers.   But they can't fire a minority, can they????   

[Sean Bond]

As others have said, LE bourbons are so hard to get at this point, that posting all the misinfo in the world won't help you get a bottle. I think most of us would drink the majority of limited edition bourbons if A) they were easy to get and B ) they were inexpensive. But given the increasingly pricey bottles out there, it's much easier to pass on stuff than it otherwise might be. For example, I just grabbed a bottle of Michter's 10 yr SB over the weekend for $110; it's an excellent bourbon (I've never had it before), but I don't think I'd pay $110 again. I can't say I enjoyed it twice as much as a Stagg Jr or FRSB, for example. If I say "pass" on it, I'm not trying to get more for myself, I'm just saying that I don't have enough disposable income to be purchasing bourbons like that, willy-nilly! 

[jp_stargazer]

15 hours ago, birdie said:

More so than past years I see a lot of posts with "not worth it", or "easy pass" comments

 

This made me think of recent experiences.  For most of my bourbon journey I've really just visited this website (and BE to a lesser extent) for forums postings.  Surely other blogs for information but not for comments.  I didn't mess around with Reddit or Facebook groups until I joined one recently (Bourbonr).  

 

Now, as one might expect with a much larger audience on the Facebook group, the average experience of the group is lower than here.  That is not intended as an insult, just an observation (hey, I was a newbie once too).  What surprised me was all the negativity about certain bottles, to the point of the existence of an almost binary rating system.  It's either great whiskey or it is terrible.  Plus I think many of the people saying, "that's crap, return it" haven't even tasted it before, let alone would he or she be in a position to tell what the poster will think of the taste.  Everyone wants to be an instant expert it seems...

 

From what I can tell, though, all the negative comments are probably less about dissuading people for malicious purposes and more about regurgitating popular opinion, posturing, and/or the enjoyment of trashing something on the internet.

 

Jason

[Old Dusty]

1 hour ago, jp_stargazer said:

 

"more about regurgitating popular opinion, posturing, and/or the enjoyment of trashing something on the internet."

 

 

There is clearly a lot of this going on. Many "instant experts" pontificating as if they hadn't had their first LE at a bar last week. But there is also a lot of fatigue out there- both vets and newbs-who are turned off by the new normal pricing/secondary/lottery B.S.  Many of the value judgments are from those who knew the market pre-boom and now can't envision paying  well over MSRP retail or exponentially more on the black market for the same or similar whiskey.

 

 The thrill of the hunt is dead-at least in these parts. Dusties are long gone and LE''s never see the shelf. And if you are lucky enough to have an in somewhere the prices are shooting skyward as the retailers know the secondary numbers and want a piece of the action. And who can blame them? But value is even getting stretched at MSRP. BTAC at $120 or more? That makes ER17 and THH easy passes in my book. And pushing it on the other three. The only Van Winkles that come close to reasonable QPR now are the 10/107 and the Rye.  Good grief the OFBB was $90 this year. 

 

I never mislead anyone in person or posting. But you might not like my opinions of some of the sacred cows. At this point I am bunkering only OWA store selects and FR PS when I find good ones. In this market that's as close as I'm getting to Bourbon Zen. 

[jp_stargazer]

That is a good point about the fatigue and how value of a particular bourbon changes as prices increase.  I've only been at this hobby in earnest for about 3 years and in that short time I have seen prices on certain "regular" but desirable bottles jump significantly (with a reduction in availability).

 

It must be pretty bad when I can share a story like, "back in my day, the year 2013, I could find ETL whenever I wanted for a reasonable price!"  

 

Jason

[Old Dusty]

Yep, ETL is a perfect example as is Weller12 and even OWA. Just kind of silly right now. But they are making  a ton of whiskey now (and have been the last couple of years) so I'm just keeping my head down, enjoying my bunker, sharing with friends, buying judiciously and waiting for the demand to slack a bit. 

[fishnbowljoe]

Tastes vary (sometimes widely) among different individuals, so I think that may be where there is some odd variances in some of the tasting notes posted here. There may also occasionally be some snarky comments that are meant in jest, and may be taken the wrong way. As for me, I do my best to give an honest evaluation of the bourbons that I taste, as well as when I post for the BOTM. My only problem is that many times I'm so on the fence about certain things I taste, what I post may be somewhat vague to say the least. It's hell getting old. 

 

Cheers! Joe

[Clueby]

52 minutes ago, Old Dusty said:

Yep, ETL is a perfect example as is Weller12 and even OWA. Just kind of silly right now. But they are making  a ton of whiskey now (and have been the last couple of years) so I'm just keeping my head down, enjoying my bunker, sharing with friends, buying judiciously and waiting for the demand to slack a bit. 

Agree on the silly part.  The examples you cited are GOOD bourbons, but not earth shatteringly good.  If they are making a ton of those, they never make it to the shelves.  I have NEVER EVER seen any of those 3 on a shelf at MSRP/retail pricing in over 3+ years.

[BFerguson]

I don't think anybody misrepresents by intention, I myself have on occasion put down some things that most would love to drink.

I think when people do talk something down, it does come from experience, and more importantly, their palate.

Personally, in the OP's example, I would have turned done the Stagg Jr also. The Middleton is a much better whiskey, and this is coming from a guy who generally doesn't like most things from the other side of he pond

As it's said, theres no accounting for taste....it's all subjective.

Great topic

B

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Golferpimp1]

Agree on the silly part.  The examples you cited are GOOD bourbons, but not earth shatteringly good.  If they are making a ton of those, they never make it to the shelves.  I have NEVER EVER seen any of those 3 on a shelf at MSRP/retail pricing in over 3+ years.

So at the rate the quality of bourbon falls (according to some of the reading I've done, I've only been in the game a year).....some may say these "good" bourbons will be great bourbons in 5 years or so. I will say I buy some stock of OWA and others with that thought in mind.

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[flahute]

1 hour ago, Clueby said:

If they are making a ton of those, they never make it to the shelves.  

That's because the whiskey is still sitting in a barrel aging in a rickhouse. It's only been a few years since they majorly increased production so none of that increased stock is ready yet.

By the time it is ready, it's quite possible that demand will be even greater so we still may not see any relief. 

[birdie]

Is part of the "easy pass" or "not worth it" based on what you might already have available to you. One of my buddies who has around 7 or 8 bottles of Pappy Van Winkle is very relaxed around whether gets a bottle or not this year, myself who has been nursing the last few drops of the only Pappy I have, not quite so relaxed :-)

[Harry in WashDC]

23 minutes ago, birdie said:

Is part of the "easy pass" or "not worth it" based on what you might already have available to you. One of my buddies who has around 7 or 8 bottles of Pappy Van Winkle is very relaxed around whether gets a bottle or not this year, myself who has been nursing the last few drops of the only Pappy I have, not quite so relaxed :-)

There's something to this "availability" thing, and I don't think it's just price-driven.  For example, VOB BIB "6" is relatively rare in WashDC.  Whenever I drop below six in the bunker, I panic.  When I have twelve on hand, I drink it regularly.  At nine, I start to sweat, and my pours get smaller.  Thank goodness I have OGD (and several dozen other things) to calm me down.

[jfw]

There is really no reason to mislead anyone.   It's not like if I say GTS is bad this year no one will buy it.   But, having said that the WLW is the winner this year from the BTAC.  Stagg, Weller and ER are all better than 2015 which was just a bad year for the BTAC (Saz and Handy were the exceptions).    PVW 23, 15 and 12 are all very good (unlike the last two year when PVW 23-15 were all just bad.).  .  FRLESm  batch 2016 is the best of the limited releases this year.  That's my opinion from both Whiskeyfest DC and NY.  Parkers is overpriced and over aged this year (I love the PHC so it pains me to say that).  It's not bad, but it's not one of the better Parker's releases.     I thought the Saz 18 this year was weird and bad.  A LOT of earthy minty anise taste to me.  

 

I always compare the LEs that I get to taste to regular pours like Blantons and BT and WTRR.  If it's not as good as them, why the heck would I pay $100+ for them? 

[garbanzobean]

24 minutes ago, birdie said:

Is part of the "easy pass" or "not worth it" based on what you might already have available to you. One of my buddies who has around 7 or 8 bottles of Pappy Van Winkle is very relaxed around whether gets a bottle or not this year, myself who has been nursing the last few drops of the only Pappy I have, not quite so relaxed :-)

For me that is part of it, but it is more about what I have already tried.  If I haven't ever been able to try something but want to, it gets a relatively high buying priority.  If LE bourbon were still easy to get, I'm sure many of us would be pontificating on the differences in releases from year to year quite happily.  Or laughing about all those private barrels we are drinking that blow the LEs out of the water.  For better or worse, that is not at all the current scene, so most of us learn to accept what we can actually get or move on.  Then we get sick of hearing about "Teh Pappiez" or whatever and the slaying of the sacred cows starts anew . . .

[jbutler]

15 hours ago, Clueby said:

Agree on the silly part.  The examples you cited are GOOD bourbons, but not earth shatteringly good.  If they are making a ton of those, they never make it to the shelves.  I have NEVER EVER seen any of those 3 on a shelf at MSRP/retail pricing in over 3+ years.

I'm pretty sure what Eric means is that a ton of whiskey has been distilled over the last few years in order to meet demand. Hopefully the bottling lines will catch up in a couple years now.

ETL and Weller 12 appear pretty regularly at a liquor store in my neighborhood, but the asking price is ~$75, and I agree, they aren't that good.

[Clueby]

8 minutes ago, jbutler said:

I'm pretty sure what Eric means is that a ton of whiskey has been distilled over the last few years in order to meet demand. Hopefully the bottling lines will catch up in a couple years now.

ETL and Weller 12 appear pretty regularly at a liquor store in my neighborhood, but the asking price is ~$75, and I agree, they aren't that good.

I get what you and flahute are saying.  Didn't read it that way originally.   Hopefully everyone is right and there will be more to go around in a few years.  If the "craze" keeps going, even those will be scooped up as well. Or the bubble may burst.  Only time will tell.  I drank that "medium shelf" for a long time and to have those bottles go the way of the unicorn has been tough.  Only in the last couple years have I been an "enthusiast" but the availabilty of anything remotely LE is discouraging.  

[PaulO]

On 11/14/2016 at 3:01 PM, Old Dusty said:

...  Many of the value judgments are from those who knew the market pre-boom and now can't envision paying  well over MSRP retail or exponentially more on the black market for the same or similar whiskey.

... 

You can put me in that category.