Do posters mislead about their view on certain bottles

[GaryT]

Echoing what others have said - I've never misled folks on SB and don't feel like I've ever been misled.  If anything, I felt the opposite in 2012 when I bought my first/last bottle of PVW20, and thought it "wasn't worth it" at the retail of $125.  I was still new to bourbon, and have since learned that I'm just not a big fan of that profile (I literally brought the bottle to Joe's house to ask him and Big Rich if it was a dud bottle or something!)  With the way prices have gone, many of the current LEs I find aren't worth what they're fetching - and for me it just isn't worth the headache.

 

I haven't been in the same position in a store, but I'll admit that if I was in a store and there was one bottle - just ONE bottle behind the counter that I was drooling over, and someone was asking about it right in front of me . . . I can't say I wouldn't make a comment like "That overpriced turd?  Meh - try ______ instead."  Now if there were TWO bottles, I'd chime in with "I was going to get one of those myself, as I really like it for ___________ " and let them decide on the other one.  

[JTaylor]

3 hours ago, GaryT said:

Echoing what others have said - I've never misled folks on SB and don't feel like I've ever been misled.  If anything, I felt the opposite in 2012 when I bought my first/last bottle of PVW20, and thought it "wasn't worth it" at the retail of $125.  I was still new to bourbon, and have since learned that I'm just not a big fan of that profile (I literally brought the bottle to Joe's house to ask him and Big Rich if it was a dud bottle or something!)  With the way prices have gone, many of the current LEs I find aren't worth what they're fetching - and for me it just isn't worth the headache.

 

 

But I'm assuming you look back and think that first/last bottle was "worth it" for the experience don't you? That's where I am now... I paid $149 for an Orphan Barrel Rhetoric 22 after a day of agonizing over the price but ultimately the decision was made that I wasn't paying that money for the bourbon, I was paying for the opportunity to have a 22yo in my stable because it was my best option to taste for myself what 22 years in the barrel does and to experience what others have described as "over-oaked" so I too would have that knowledge.  I doubt I will find many "worth" repeat buying at those prices, when I could be pretty dang happy if all I could get for the rest of my life was Blanton's @ $60 or OWA at $26. Fortunately it only costs about $3.00 to experience "Beam Funkiness" because it is available at any local bar and there are many others available that are more economical to try. At this point in my hobby (obsession, compulsion, addiction, whatever...) I haven't found many I'd pass on solely because of price. Who knows? Maybe I'll taste WLW or GTS or maybe even PVW and decide to dump everything else I have down the drain because they're so much better and well worth $200, but I doubt it. But I will GLADLY pay that for my first bottle just for the experience...

[ken_mays]

As an Internet entity that this board represents, I feel that most of the membership here is not in direct competition with each other for bottles in any given market.   The reason I'm here is to read (and post) honest impressions and like many folks here, I'm vaguely disgusted at the chronic LE chasing and more than vaguely disgusted with the chronic flippers.   So I'm not in that market at all beyond the "if I happen to see a bottle on the shelf and have $100 burning a hole in my pocket" level (which admittedly isn't very often). 

 

[ken_mays]

6 hours ago, JTaylor said:

 

But I'm assuming you look back and think that first/last bottle was "worth it" for the experience don't you? That's where I am now... I paid $149 for an Orphan Barrel Rhetoric 22 after a day of agonizing over the price but ultimately the decision was made that I wasn't paying that money for the bourbon, I was paying for the opportunity to have a 22yo in my stable because it was my best option to taste for myself what 22 years in the barrel does and to experience what others have described as "over-oaked" so I too would have that knowledge.  I doubt I will find many "worth" repeat buying at those prices, when I could be pretty dang happy if all I could get for the rest of my life was Blanton's @ $60 or OWA at $26. Fortunately it only costs about $3.00 to experience "Beam Funkiness" because it is available at any local bar and there are many others available that are more economical to try. At this point in my hobby (obsession, compulsion, addiction, whatever...) I haven't found many I'd pass on solely because of price. Who knows? Maybe I'll taste WLW or GTS or maybe even PVW and decide to dump everything else I have down the drain because they're so much better and well worth $200, but I doubt it. But I will GLADLY pay that for my first bottle just for the experience...

 

As an educational experience, the $150 bottle of the latest release of Old Unobtainable 25 Year is rationalizable.     The other side of the coin is in a blind test, I think it can be hard to justify most of the super-hyped LEs at the current prices.

 

[JTaylor]

3 hours ago, ken_mays said:

 

As an educational experience, the $150 bottle of the latest release of Old Unobtainable 25 Year is rationalizable.     The other side of the coin is in a blind test, I think it can be hard to justify most of the super-hyped LEs at the current prices.

 

Agreed, if some of the LE stuff was readily available it would probably collect dust on the shelf. You'll always have the guys who'll pay the premium price because they think premium price equals premium product. Then you'll also have sellers who purposely control supply to drive up demand to keep the price higher than it could ever get otherwise for their mediocre product. But if my only BTAC acquisition to date, THH is any indication, there is also some LE stuff out there that is worth every damn penny. Every penny of retail that is... They may be a bit pricey to be daily pours for most folks, myself included, but I can definitely see keeping some number of bottles of the really "good stuff" on hand if you can find it! 

[GaryT]

10 hours ago, JTaylor said:

 

But I'm assuming you look back and think that first/last bottle was "worth it" for the experience don't you? That's where I am now... I paid $149 for an Orphan Barrel Rhetoric 22 after a day of agonizing over the price but ultimately the decision was made that I wasn't paying that money for the bourbon, I was paying for the opportunity to have a 22yo in my stable because it was my best option to taste for myself what 22 years in the barrel does and to experience what others have described as "over-oaked" so I too would have that knowledge.  I doubt I will find many "worth" repeat buying at those prices, when I could be pretty dang happy if all I could get for the rest of my life was Blanton's @ $60 or OWA at $26. Fortunately it only costs about $3.00 to experience "Beam Funkiness" because it is available at any local bar and there are many others available that are more economical to try. At this point in my hobby (obsession, compulsion, addiction, whatever...) I haven't found many I'd pass on solely because of price. Who knows? Maybe I'll taste WLW or GTS or maybe even PVW and decide to dump everything else I have down the drain because they're so much better and well worth $200, but I doubt it. But I will GLADLY pay that for my first bottle just for the experience...

 

Honestly, I guess it was worth it in that it educated me about the hype of PVW - at least for my personal palate and preferences.  Had someone ELSE handed me a bottle of PVW20 and said "Try THIS!", I might not have been as critical.  But I had never tasted any Pappy, and in hindsight - I am glad that I ONLY paid the retail of the day for the experience (because if I paid what some folks spend TODAY on that, I'd be downright pissed off!!)  

 

Now, I will say that I have paid $300 for a bottle of whiskey (scotch, not bourbon), and I honestly would buy another if I could find it.  So there is whiskey that I do think is "worth it", but I've found I am better of trying before I buy when it gets north of $100.  The last time I did a tally, I was shooting about .500 on whether I was happy or had buyers remorse on purchases in that territory.  Although, I have also gotten better about finding reviews where I've determined my taste aligns with the reviewer more often than not, and try to gauge how far back their hair was blown.  At the end of the day, the only way to find out is to taste it.  And short of shelling out some serious coin - I'd recommend connecting with local enthusiasts in your area   Here in Georgia (and a couple times a year in Kentucky), folks get together and just share whiskey - which doesn't always include LEs, but often they appear (I know I won't bring them out for most guests, but for those I know appreciate it - no problem breaking out the WLW or GTS).

[PaulO]

I'm glad I started out drinking bottom to mid shelf stuff.  I have some ideas about mash bills and house styles, to help me decide whether something may be of interest.  Different strokes for different folks.  

[Louisiana]

Every new whiskey gets opened immediately in this house. I know if I want to purchase more of a particular batch or barrel. Also I know which LE's to go for! And Yes. My post are honest on this website. I think most post on here are honest.

[Paddy]

I've never really regretted a purchase as I just look at each one as a learning experience.  My place in this journey has me bunkering readily available brands that I fear may go the way of the dodo bird.  Limited's are great (although not nearly the value they once were), but I'm way past fighting the masses for them.   

 

The bottom line is that we're all in different places in our journey.  Try not to let it cause you any anxiety.  If you can't find what you want in your local and/or home bar, go have it in spirits bar or good restaurant.  They've all got the good stuff now!  Most importantly, have fun (yes, our creed is that we will have fun) and enjoy the ride, 'cause there's more good whiskey out there now than ever before! 

 

[ken_mays]

17 hours ago, JTaylor said:

Agreed, if some of the LE stuff was readily available it would probably collect dust on the shelf. You'll always have the guys who'll pay the premium price because they think premium price equals premium product. Then you'll also have sellers who purposely control supply to drive up demand to keep the price higher than it could ever get otherwise for their mediocre product. But if my only BTAC acquisition to date, THH is any indication, there is also some LE stuff out there that is worth every damn penny. Every penny of retail that is... They may be a bit pricey to be daily pours for most folks, myself included, but I can definitely see keeping some number of bottles of the really "good stuff" on hand if you can find it! 

 

Funny you said THH.  It's the only LE that I get excited about.  I've had various years of the rest of the BTAC and they aren't worth the trouble for me. 

[JTaylor]

Just now, ken_mays said:

 

Funny you said THH.  It's the only LE that I get excited about.  I've had various years of the rest of the BTAC and they aren't worth the trouble for me. 

 

I wish I had even known the stuff existed 10 years ago when you could get it and it was semi-reasonable. I might feel the same way, but it's the quest for that first bottle that holds the allure... 

[BDanner]

So, is that what's going on with the Whoop & Holler? It's secretly the best stuff in the world and everyone just wants it for themselves? 

Edited November 17, 2016 by BDanner

[JTaylor]

4 hours ago, BDanner said:

So, is that what's going on with the Whoop & Holler? It's secretly the best stuff in the world and everyone just wants it for themselves? 

Lol... I saw that on the shelf Tues night, then I saw the price... finally,  a LE I can walk away from!

[EarthQuake]

This is an interesting thread. I think trying to psych people out of buying limiteds so you can buy them probably isn't effective, plus I would feel really gross doing it. I like enough things (and enough new things are coming on the market) that if something I love becomes scarce I'll be just fine.

 

For me, I've given up on chasing or buying limiteds or really any bourbon/rye over $100 if I haven't tasted it first. It's not really a matter of what I can afford, it's just that I've bought my share of disproportionally expensive bourbon and rye, which generally leads to regret and feeling like a fool. Instead I'll buy a pour at a bar. Without exception, none of the limiteds/unicons I've tried have been worth the multi-hundred+ price points they sell for on the secondary, and that's really the only option I have for buying them living in a small town/market. GTS is really damn good, but it isn't $400 better than Stagg Jr, it just isn't, not even close. Pappy 10 isn't noticeably better than a lot of stuff I can get on the shelf for $40-80 and Pappy 15/20/23 is too absurdly priced even for a glass. Four Roses limiteds, like SmBLE are damned good and probably the closest I would come to paying secondary ($200-ish), but the FRSB store picks are also damned good and at less than half the price, so I don't see the point. All of this stuff I would obviously pick up at retail if I had a chance, but my chances are slim to none.

 

For Armagnac I don't have a problem paying $100-200 or so, but that's generally for 30-40-50 year old brandy and I've yet to have a vintage stated well aged Armagnac that was less than very good. With Armagnac, there isn't an insane markup or secondary market, you pretty much get what you pay for. I would also be more willing to buy a scotch in the $100-200 range than a bourbon as well, as there are just too many good bourbons under $100 to bother stressing about the unicorns and I feel like scotch is more of a you-get-what-you-pay for game than american whiskey. Past $200 and you're really beyond the point of diminishing returns in my opinion, no brown liquid is worth that much, you're just going to piss it out in an hour. Again, that's why I like trying limiteds at bars, I get the excitement and experience of trying something impossible to find by normal means, but I'm not stuck with the regret and disappointment of a $500 bottle that is only slightly better than a $50 bottle. Buying stuff at bars means I pay more per oz, but what I'm really paying is an educational/stupidity fee, it's a reminder that none of this stuff is the holy grail or the secret to life, and that I do not need to hunt for it or pay extortionate rates on the secondary.

Edited April 19, 2018 by EarthQuake

[ondarocks]

I've never let a plant try to divert me from a said mission. I stand tall through all diversionary tactics. ;-)

[Tony Santana]

There are always exceptions to the rule, but I think the great majority of folks on this site are straight shooters.  If you hear "easy pass" on this site as compared to others, I think it's mostly because people here don't tend to buy with an eye towards what a bottle is worth on the secondary market, and are more concerned with QPR ratio.  Those idiots on the Facebook pages are mostly (again, I'm generalizing) either newbies who don't know much or will jump on anything that's quasi-unusual.  Or they would never pass up a bottle of ETL (whether they like it or not) because they could flip it for a $50 profit.  Me, I don't mislead.  I'll say what I like.  I've got plenty of bottles.

[Jazz June]

I mostly agree with the general consensus in this thread. But I do come back to one issue with relying on trying the LEs in bars rather than buying a bottle: do you really feel you have a solid idea about a bourbon from a single pour on a single day? While it gives me some insight, I don't feel like I have a solid opinion on a whiskey from that one taste.

 

Nonetheless, I haven't paid any significant markups or more than $100 for a bottle. There are some LEs I would gladly pay say $200 for, but they are the kind that are only ever on the shelf for the absolutely stupid prices. I have a hard time believing there is a whiskey truly worth $500  or more a bottle.

[bayouredd]

Being an I.T. guy, I have been on forums of one kind or another since forums were bulletin boards. (boy, am I old) When the majority act like their word is gospel & no other opinion matters, I bail on that forum...

SB seems to me, to be honest folks gladly sharing their opinions & knowledge. I don't need anyone to think for me, however I love to hear others opinions & why they think that way. I also never hold one's opinion against them & by the way, you never have to agree with said opinion.

While I have seen your point being valid in lots of cases, I don't think it is here on SB.com; in my opinion. This forum is just plain fun & has guided my newbness into my own likes & dislikes.

Thanx SB...

 

P.S. The Original CZ forum is full of good folks also. (shameless plug for firearm forum)

[ThirstyinOhio]

In general, I don't think anyone on any forum is out there trying to bad mouth a whiskey in hopes of being able to find it themselves.  I'm not going to say that no one has ever done that, I think people realize its just not practical and will have virtually no impact on the market.  However, I do believe that the exact opposite does occur.  I've seen people talk up limited releases or private picks and then turn around and attempt to sell them on the secondary market.  The good ole practice of "pump and dump".  I see this a lot with Willett WFE bottles and barrel picks from various groups on the secondary markets.  I'm honest when I give my opinion about whiskies, but I also realize that they are just my opinions and others may disagree.  I also try not to bring in "value" or "worth" into discussion as that is measure that varies per individual. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by ThirstyinOhio

[Bob_Loblaw]

This was an interesting read.  As many have said, no misleading going on here.  "Easy passes" do exist for me.  Jefferson Presidential Select 16 last year at $200, and Michter's 10 for $120 come immediately to mind.  Booker's at just about any price is another one.