Bottom Shelf Finds?

[Richnimrod]

1 hour ago, JTaylor said:

 

My local has OGD 114 on the bottom shelf along with the BiB and standard OGD I assume just to keep them all together. OWA and WSR are also down there together... I think the term "Bottom Shelfer" is very subjective, probably too subjective to be defined within a rigid set of parameters unless you only use price. Say, everything below $17 is considered a "bottom shelfer" On the other end of the spectrum, there are many bourbons found on the top shelf that many here would not call "Top Shelf" bourbon.

As we're fond of saying here, YMMV...

 

JT

This sounds like a viable way to make this understandable, even something close to universal; but when you take into account the added taxes, and pricing structures of the various states you'll find the differences seem to be causing brands to be priced much differently from state to state, and the differences seem magnified in the lowest price brands.   In my area for instance I can't find brands under $17.   That may be partially due to decisions made by owners not to stock very low-margin brands, of course; but the result is that any "cut-off" for brands to be considered bottom shelf will be quite different in various areaa.

[emr454]

4 hours ago, JTaylor said:

 

My local has OGD 114 on the bottom shelf along with the BiB and standard OGD I assume just to keep them all together. OWA and WSR are also down there together... I think the term "Bottom Shelfer" is very subjective, probably too subjective to be defined within a rigid set of parameters unless you only use price. Say, everything below $17 is considered a "bottom shelfer" On the other end of the spectrum, there are many bourbons found on the top shelf that many here would not call "Top Shelf" bourbon.

As we're fond of saying here, YMMV...

 

JT

I've noticed similar instances in my local stores. Most of the Jim Beam products are typically mid-shelf, even the flavored stuff. EW black is usually bottom or mid-shelf, along with WT and OGD. Bulleit, Dad's Hat Rye, and most micros/NDP's are on the top shelf. Actual shelf location does not seem tied to price or quality in some stores.

 

2 hours ago, Richnimrod said:

This sounds like a viable way to make this understandable, even something close to universal; but when you take into account the added taxes, and pricing structures of the various states you'll find the differences seem to be causing brands to be priced much differently from state to state, and the differences seem magnified in the lowest price brands.   In my area for instance I can't find brands under $17.   That may be partially due to decisions made by owners not to stock very low-margin brands, of course; but the result is that any "cut-off" for brands to be considered bottom shelf will be quite different in various areaa.

This is what is perplexing me lately. There is a lot of discussion in this thread of brands that I would consider mid-shelf, but they are sold at "bottom-shelf" prices compared to what's available to me locally. So maybe we should look at it this way: there is actual "bottom-shelf" quality, and there is "bottom-shelf" price. As you said above, eve then it is hard to compare with the drastic price differences across the country.

[GeeTen]

5 hours ago, musekatcher said:

 

Yes, seems like we have an inconsistent selection on the bottom shelf in limited areas.   I'm wondering if this is a new phenomena, driven by the drastic escalation of bourbon interest, and attempts to inflate the perceived value and pricing for the other shelves?   While "bottom shelf" has always meant the most modest brand offerings from distillers,  like HH, and still used in reviews today by that meaning, some areas don't follow that convention.  See my post above for a possible solution -

 

- edited some grammer

 

Uhhh, I wasn't kidding (too much).  I used to work @ TW and most everything in the Small Batch Bourbon section was arranged alphabetically unless, of course, the bottles were too tall and HAD to go to a higher shelf.  Now the Single Malt Scotches were grouped by geography (Speyside, Highlands, Islay, Lowlands, etc.) and then alphabetically, IIRC.  It was so much fun!    

[musekatcher]

1 hour ago, emr454 said:

I've noticed similar instances in my local stores. Most of the Jim Beam products are typically mid-shelf, even the flavored stuff. EW black is usually bottom or mid-shelf, along with WT and OGD. Bulleit, Dad's Hat Rye, and most micros/NDP's are on the top shelf. Actual shelf location does not seem tied to price or quality in some stores.

 

This is what is perplexing me lately. There is a lot of discussion in this thread of brands that I would consider mid-shelf, but they are sold at "bottom-shelf" prices compared to what's available to me locally. So maybe we should look at it this way: there is actual "bottom-shelf" quality, and there is "bottom-shelf" price. As you said above, eve then it is hard to compare with the drastic price differences across the country.

 Which is odd?  Lets take Buffalo Trace.  They produce Old Charter, Buffalo Trace, and Elmer T. Lee.  They price the three progressively, leading to a bottom, middle, and top catagory/shelf.  Heaven Hill offers competitors for the same progressive pricing, and catagory/shelves.  I'm not sure LS's are consistently offering these in this manner however, leading to confusion, and inflated/deflated expectations. 

[Flyfish]

1 hour ago, GeeTen said:

 

Uhhh, I wasn't kidding (too much).  I used to work @ TW and most everything in the Small Batch Bourbon section was arranged alphabetically unless, of course, the bottles were too tall and HAD to go to a higher shelf.  Now the Single Malt Scotches were grouped by geography (Speyside, Highlands, Islay, Lowlands, etc.) and then alphabetically, IIRC.  It was so much fun!    

I was looking for WTKS in the new Louisville TW. Mistake was looking chest high and above. Staffer pointed it out on the bottom shelf. Arrangement of bottles seemed totally random.

[flahute]

1 hour ago, musekatcher said:

 Which is odd?  Lets take Buffalo Trace.  They produce Old Charter, Buffalo Trace, and Elmer T. Lee.  They price the three progressively, leading to a bottom, middle, and top catagory/shelf.  Heaven Hill offers competitors for the same progressive pricing, and catagory/shelves.  I'm not sure LS's are consistently offering these in this manner however, leading to confusion, and inflated/deflated expectations. 

You're assuming that Sazerac sells everything in all markets. They don't. We don't get Old Charter out here. Same with Heaven Hill and their wide variety of cheap BIB's. EW Black and White Label is their cheapest offering in the majority of stores.

Also, I'd argue that Elmer is not "top shelf". Blanton's and Rock Hill Farm would be up there.

This just highlights how differing opinions and regional pricing effect everyone's impression of shelf definitions.

 

To get the answer you seek, you probably need to redefine the question as "what is the absolute cheapest bourbon each distillery makes that you find to punch above it's weight (so to speak).

If you go with literal bottom shelf, then at my store, it's Four Roses Single Barrel.

[Paddy]

I agree with Steve, and speaking to the ETL categorization...up until Mr. Lee's passing, ETL sold here for $25-6.99, while BT (it's equal in the 'other BT mashbill) sold for $23-4.99.  ETL was a solid, always available, get anytime you want, mid-shelf, economy bourbon... until that time. 

 

I only bring this up to provide some 'scale' to hierarchy, as RHF and Blanton's have always been the mashbill #2 standard-bearers.  The price you see today for ETL (when you do manage to see it), is solely the result of demand outstripping supply (partially due to the boom, but primarily the result of a not yet completed aftershock, following his passing). 

 

Due to the above, ETL is a no go for me in this current market.  It's just not worth the time, or money. 

 

Anyway, what was the question? 

[emr454]

On 1/4/2017 at 10:16 AM, emr454 said:

Can't get EWBiB here either.

I take that back. Wasn't expecting much from this particular store and lo and behold they have it for $22/liter. Not quite bottom shelf, more like mid shelf. The bottom shelf (does the floor count as a shelf?) had handles of JW Dant BiB in plastic bottles.

[Richnimrod]

50 minutes ago, emr454 said:

I take that back. Wasn't expecting much from this particular store and lo and behold they have it for $22/liter. Not quite bottom shelf, more like mid shelf. The bottom shelf (does the floor count as a shelf?) had handles of JW Dant BiB in plastic bottles.

I like Dant!    ...But, not those damned plastic jugs.

[emr454]

53 minutes ago, Richnimrod said:

I like Dant!    ...But, not those damned plastic jugs.

It was $23/1.75l bottle. I tend to stay away from bourbon in plastic bottles, but I've found some good reviews for the bourbon online. May be worth a try.

[Harry in WashDC]

20 minutes ago, emr454 said:

It was $23/1.75l bottle. I tend to stay away from bourbon in plastic bottles, but I've found some good reviews for the bourbon online. May be worth a try.

FWIW, I picked up a handle of JWD last week for $24 plus tax and posted some comments on it someplace here.  Search for "Dant" postings over the last two weeks at most. It was a bargain at that price, and its plastic bottle has great handholds for pouring from it.  I'm a spiller, and this bottle won't let me spill.

 

And it was sitting on the floor.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Harry in WashDC
spelling

[musekatcher]

I collected all the candidates from this thread, and smerged with candidates from the "Most Underrated" thread.  Really good broad-ranging responses.

 

The most popular primary criteria looks to be, not surprisingly, price.  Price = rating for the most part, so an underrated product is essentially under-priced in comparison to peer brands.  A couple things that contribute to underrating might be a new and undiscovered product, or negative image and reputation that impacts sales and therefore pricing.   In either case, it's the knowledge of a product's quality that would be contrary to popular opinion (i.e. price) that leads to a "find" or "underrated" or  a "well kept secret". 

 

Also, "bottom shelf" may not be nationally consistent as a location or description for the most modest brands, slow sellers, or even lowest pricing.   "Bottom shelf, middle and top shelf" are traditional whiskey-speak, and still used by reviewers, hobbyists and practitioners.  There may need to be some caution attached to meaning. 

 

Looking at the data, most of the brands submitted cluster under $15, making a good cutoff consistent with price=rating for a "bottom shelf" straight bourbon.  The question then becomes, best straight bourbon under $15.   That's still over 20 brands from the list.   (4) new brands are on my buy-list to cameo (as I like to do) in between bottles of my higher-brow favorites. 

 

Finally, with the escalation of bourbon demand, sub-$15 KSBW could become a target.  Especially 4+ year KSB.  I've watched several brands escalate 20-40% in price just in the last 3 years.   I could imagine the need to shift aging product upscale to keep up supply, and replace it with younger bourbon or blends.  It may be a good idea to rotate a few low-investment straight bourbon brands (while available) thru your cabinet, and inform your palette.

[TheNovaMan]

On 1/3/2017 at 11:45 PM, ken_mays said:

The gold label Heaven Hill is about as low as I've personally stooped.  I wouldn't buy another bottle of that for any reason short of arson.

 

The BIB or the 80?

[TheNovaMan]

On 1/6/2017 at 5:58 PM, emr454 said:

It was $23/1.75l bottle. I tend to stay away from bourbon in plastic bottles, but I've found some good reviews for the bourbon online. May be worth a try.

 

I like Dant BIB, therefore I think you should try it

[TheNovaMan]

On 1/4/2017 at 5:02 PM, emr454 said:

These are basically my bottom shelf bourbons, because in this area anything less expensive than that is usually Jim Beam white, Ten High, or blended whiskey.

 

Watch out on the Ten High.  Last I knew, only two states get Ten High straight bourbon - most get "A Bourbon Blend"

[ken_mays]

2 hours ago, TheNovaMan said:

 

The BIB or the 80?

 

The 80. I have liked all the BIBs I've had so far. 

[flahute]

9 minutes ago, ken_mays said:

 

The 80. I have liked all the BIBs I've had so far. 

I had a 1L of the 4yr gold label BIB. Didn't really care for it. Wasn't terrible, but wasn't one I'd buy again. 

[kevinbrink]

I really like Ezra Brooks 90 for the price, haven't actually had the 101 but should probably pick one up while I'm in NY one day, don't believe we get it in NJ.

[miller542]

On 1/7/2017 at 10:05 AM, musekatcher said:

I collected all the candidates from this thread, and smerged with candidates from the "Most Underrated" thread.  Really good broad-ranging responses.

 

Looking at the data, most of the brands submitted cluster under $15, making a good cutoff consistent with price=rating for a "bottom shelf" straight bourbon.  The question then becomes, best straight bourbon under $15.   That's still over 20 brands from the list.

 

Finally, with the escalation of bourbon demand, sub-$15 KSBW could become a target.  Especially 4+ year KSB. 

 

 

Since you did the work, please share here.  I"d be particularly interested in just the segment within the 20 sub-$15 brands that are 4+ year.  

 

 

[Limegoldconvertible68]

Just saw one I haven't seen before. It was Bellows Bourbon for $9.99. It stated aged for four yrs in oak barrels on the top of the label. Is it any good?

[fishnbowljoe]

6 minutes ago, Limegoldconvertible68 said:

Just saw one I haven't seen before. It was Bellows Bourbon for $9.99. It stated aged for four yrs in oak barrels on the top of the label. Is it any good?

 

I believe that the Bellows label is now owned by Luxco. Not 100 % sure who owned it before, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that it may have been owned by Beam not too long ago. I'm not sure if it's any good or not, but FWIW, there's a few bars around here that use Bellows as their "rail" bourbon. 

 

Joe

[tanstaafl2]

5 minutes ago, Limegoldconvertible68 said:

Just saw one I haven't seen before. It was Bellows Bourbon for $9.99. It stated aged for four yrs in oak barrels on the top of the label. Is it any good?

 

Was a Beam bourbon brand they acquired during the glut era in the 80's when many brand names were consolidated. Beam sold it to Luxco several years ago but it was probably still made by Beam until 2014 according to Chuck Cowdery's blog. If Luxco keeps selling the brand name they will eventually have to source it or make it themselves. Maybe it will be one of the brands made at Limestone which they bought an interest in or at the distillery they are apparently building in Bardstown called Lux Row Distillery.

 

But for now I would think it is a gamble as to what you would get. But at $10 it is not an expensive gamble I suppose!

[musekatcher]

4 hours ago, tanstaafl2 said:

 

Was a Beam bourbon brand they acquired during the glut era in the 80's when many brand names were consolidated. Beam sold it to Luxco

 

4 hours ago, Limegoldconvertible68 said:

Just saw one I haven't seen before. It was Bellows Bourbon for $9.99. It stated aged for four yrs in oak barrels on the top of the label. Is it any good?

 

It may not be in production.  You could be looking at a dusty. 

[musekatcher]

8 hours ago, miller542 said:

 

 

Since you did the work, please share here.  I"d be particularly interested in just the segment within the 20 sub-$15 brands that are 4+ year.  

 

 

 

Here's the list.  I tried to cull current production, and collected prices from my local stores and some internet research.  Send me corrections and I will update.  EDIT - I used "4 yr min" for NAS - jbh

Edited January 10, 2017 by musekatcher

[musekatcher]

Just discovered, my local Ancient Age has a 36 month AS, updated list: