The next Stitzel Weller

[BourbonGuy]

 I guess  I have been looking for the next Stitzel Weller Pappy 15 or Jefferson's Presidential 17/18.  These were special bourbons.  That is not to say I don't have enjoy the many bourbons I have on my shelf like  Buffalo Trace, Knob Creek, Makers Mark Cask, Evan Williams single barrel, Henry McKenna BIB, Elijah Craig and Wild Turkey 101 (to name a few ) .    But the Stitzel Weller bourbon TO ME, was very special.  The current Pappy 15 is good, but not like the original.

 

With all these great bourbons I guess I shouldn't miss the SW.  But on this board, I bet most of the members could pick it out in a blind tasting.  What will be the next SW?  What is your special bourbon?

 

[Saul_cooperstein]

National Distillers Old Grand Dad 114

[Richnimrod]

Try the NAS Benchmark.    KIDDING!!!!!

[flahute]

24 minutes ago, Saul_cooperstein said:

National Distillers Old Grand Dad 114

The cat's been out of the bag on that one for a long time now.

 

The short answer to the OP is that there won't be another SW any time soon. Those barrels and the ones that became Jefferson's 17/18 and the special ones from Willett were the result of the glut when special extra aged bourbons sat around unwanted which made them available to the NDP's. Those barrels mostly don't exist anymore and when they do, the people who have them know what they have and sell the contents for a small fortune.

[Old Dusty]

The only ones I can see on the horizon (and they aren't direct  analogs because both distilleries are still operating)  are dusty WT-due to the lower entry proof and higher age statements and MAYBE Rutledge era Four Roses. The legacy of the Small Batch LE's and the mutant OBSV yeast. The dusty WTs are already heading to SW territory and my best guess is that the Rutledge bottlings will end up there. 

[Whiskey Dick]

who knows?

 

I doubt many people thought in the 80-90's that SW was the revered bourbon it is today.

 

 

 

 

that said, I'll say it again. SAOS is the new WFE, and probably heading down the same path, unfortunately.

[Paddy]

7 minutes ago, Old Dusty said:

The dusty WTs are already heading to SW territory and my best guess is that the Rutledge bottlings will end up there. 

 

^^^This!^^^

 

For the reasons mentioned above, 'Old' WT distillate is the nectar of the God's.  Additionally, many 4R cultist's have agreed that many of the JR era distillate bottling's will end up being coveted just as much as any of the old SW distillate.  Although 4R's is stylistically different in many ways, there have been many that are just as good, if not better, IMO. 

[Louisiana]

7 minutes ago, Whiskey Dick said:

that said, I'll say it again. SAOS is the new WFE, and probably heading down the same path, unfortunately.

 

You can't say stuff like that. Just kidding.  This could be true. Only time will tell... 

 

 

[PaulO]

I guess it depends what you're asking.

What will end up being rediculously coveted and scarce - who knows?

What is made today most similar to DSP 16 Old Fitz?  That is Makers Mark.  We can't really compare anything of current MM to extra aged glut era whiskey.  MM bottles as soon as they think it's ready.  If they ever do come out with a super aged product; I can assure you it will be $$$. 

[Bbstout]

Funny I just saw the heading of stitzel weller as I just watched an episode of Anthony bourdains parts unknown where Sean Brock mentioned this name multiple times as "the best" while panning on glen cairn glasses full of 18 year more times then I could count. Funny the episode ended with a closeup of a wild turkey bottle I couldn't identify as I was convinced he was a shill for Sazerac.

[berto]

14 hours ago, Bbstout said:

Funny I just saw the heading of stitzel weller as I just watched an episode of Anthony bourdains parts unknown where Sean Brock mentioned this name multiple times as "the best" while panning on glen cairn glasses full of 18 year more times then I could count. Funny the episode ended with a closeup of a wild turkey bottle I couldn't identify as I was convinced he was a shill for Sazerac.

 

Brock spends ridiculous amounts of money on SW and drinks ridiculous amounts of it.   

[garbanzobean]

I have a hard time separating wheated mashbill bourbon from the image of S-W, so who the heck knows.  I wouldn't really call any large bourbon distillery unappreciated at this point.  Arguments could be made that most of the distilleries have underappreciated expressions, but I don't think any of that really applies to being the next S-W.  As of right now Buffalo Trace seems to have the most "legendary" status of any distillery in operation.  Of their lineup, I really only seem to come back to Stagg Jr., OWA, and RHF, though I'd buy Baby Saz if it were on the shelves all the time.

 

I guess my final answer is:  None of them and hopefully there'll never be another.

Edited February 2, 2017 by garbanzobean

[flahute]

22 hours ago, Old Dusty said:

The only ones I can see on the horizon (and they aren't direct  analogs because both distilleries are still operating)  are dusty WT-due to the lower entry proof and higher age statements and MAYBE Rutledge era Four Roses. The legacy of the Small Batch LE's and the mutant OBSV yeast. The dusty WTs are already heading to SW territory and my best guess is that the Rutledge bottlings will end up there. 

 

22 hours ago, Paddy said:

 

^^^This!^^^

 

For the reasons mentioned above, 'Old' WT distillate is the nectar of the God's.  Additionally, many 4R cultist's have agreed that many of the JR era distillate bottling's will end up being coveted just as much as any of the old SW distillate.  Although 4R's is stylistically different in many ways, there have been many that are just as good, if not better, IMO. 

 

I could see this coming to fruition actually. Of the many things Jim did to contribute to what 4R became, what isn't talked about much are the standards he put into place and upheld. Things like removing the top two stripping plates from the column still after he took over operations (which was a big risk because Vendome had no idea if it would work) which he did to improve flavor. Will whiskey off the new still they built taste the same? who knows. Jim also insisted on fermentation at a colder temperature which made it take longer. He also did this for flavor.

There is reason to believe that standards are changing in his absence and that the wrong people are making these decisions. Time will tell.

[namadio]

If you believe the marketing people it's obviously [insert new "craft" distillery here].

Edited February 2, 2017 by namadio
Can't spell

[Kepler]

4 hours ago, flahute said:

There is reason to believe that standards are changing in his absence and that the wrong people are making these decisions. Time will tell.

I am wondering how you know this stuff.  Do you work in the industry? 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Kepler

[Paddy]

11 minutes ago, Kepler said:

I am wondering how you know this stuff.  Do you work in the industry? 

He may as well be, as much time as he spends here! 

 

Truth is, there's proof in the pudding.  JR didn't leave in a hurry for nothing, did he?  When corporate influence negatively impacts the 'on the ground' wishes of the distillery hands on deck, you can bet the product is/will be impacted (and not in a good way).  He also sounded a pretty big warning that his honey barrel, uber aged barrel proofers were a fast dwindling stock that would soon leave the well dry.  These factors, combined with the booms hyped demand on the standard products, have stretched the 4R's profile into a new reality.  One that I fear isn't going to be the same as the one many of us came to hold near, and dear. 

[flahute]

59 minutes ago, Kepler said:

I am wondering how you know this stuff.  Do you work in the industry? 

 

36 minutes ago, Paddy said:

He may as well be, as much time as he spends here! 

 

Truth is, there's proof in the pudding.  JR didn't leave in a hurry for nothing, did he?  When corporate influence negatively impacts the 'on the ground' wishes of the distillery hands on deck, you can bet the product is/will be impacted (and not in a good way).  He also sounded a pretty big warning that his honey barrel, uber aged barrel proofers were a fast dwindling stock that would soon leave the well dry.  These factors, combined with the booms hyped demand on the standard products, have stretched the 4R's profile into a new reality.  One that I fear isn't going to be the same as the one many of us came to hold near, and dear. 

 

Haha, yes, Kentucky is now my second home.

I don't work in the industry, but for reasons I cant disclose, I've made connections with those that do including some current Master Distillers and some recent ones. They are a very open group. 

 

Paddy is correct. Things are happening at 4R that are concerning. Brent is fantastic, I love the guy. There are other forces however. Jim could stand up to them. Now that he's gone.....things are changing.

[Kepler]

16 minutes ago, flahute said:

 

 

Haha, yes, Kentucky is now my second home.

I don't work in the industry, but for reasons I cant disclose, I've made connections with those that do including some current Master Distillers and some recent ones. They are a very open group. 

 

Paddy is correct. Things are happening at 4R that are concerning. Brent is fantastic, I love the guy. There are other forces however. Jim could stand up to them. Now that he's gone.....things are changing.

Hmm, mystery and intrigue.  

[emr454]

4 hours ago, flahute said:

 

 

Haha, yes, Kentucky is now my second home.

I don't work in the industry, but for reasons I cant disclose, I've made connections with those that do including some current Master Distillers and some recent ones. They are a very open group. 

 

Paddy is correct. Things are happening at 4R that are concerning. Brent is fantastic, I love the guy. There are other forces however. Jim could stand up to them. Now that he's gone.....things are changing.

Any specific changes that you can mention without disclosing your sources? FR has always been one of the distillers I felt were doing things right, quality wise. It would be a terrible shame if that were to change.

[tanstaafl2]

12 hours ago, flahute said:

 

 

Haha, yes, Kentucky is now my second home.

I don't work in the industry, but for reasons I cant disclose, I've made connections with those that do including some current Master Distillers and some recent ones. They are a very open group. 

 

Paddy is correct. Things are happening at 4R that are concerning. Brent is fantastic, I love the guy. There are other forces however. Jim could stand up to them. Now that he's gone.....things are changing.

 

Can Four Roses "Flame Thrower" Cinnamon flavored "whiskey" be far behind...

[Kepler]

13 hours ago, Paddy said:

Truth is, there's proof in the pudding.  JR didn't leave in a hurry for nothing, did he?  When corporate influence negatively impacts the 'on the ground' wishes of the distillery hands on deck, you can bet the product is/will be impacted (and not in a good way).  He also sounded a pretty big warning that his honey barrel, uber aged barrel proofers were a fast dwindling stock that would soon leave the well dry.  These factors, combined with the booms hyped demand on the standard products, have stretched the 4R's profile into a new reality.  One that I fear isn't going to be the same as the one many of us came to hold near, and dear. 

 

13 hours ago, flahute said:

Paddy is correct. Things are happening at 4R that are concerning. Brent is fantastic, I love the guy. There are other forces however. Jim could stand up to them. Now that he's gone.....things are changing.

Although I'm a longtime bourbon lover I've only been drinking 4R for a handful of years. FWIW, I have noticed that my best private selects are my older bottles.  Hmm ...

[flahute]

17 hours ago, emr454 said:

Any specific changes that you can mention without disclosing your sources? FR has always been one of the distillers I felt were doing things right, quality wise. It would be a terrible shame if that were to change.

 

It's all about the quality standards mentioned above. Jim fermented at a colder temperature because it improved flavor. Colder fermentation takes longer, it can add a day. If your supplies are stressed and you need to distill more at a 24/7 clip, you can achieve more output by raising the temperature of fermentation and shortening the process. That is just one example.

 

10 hours ago, tanstaafl2 said:

 

Can Four Roses "Flame Thrower" Cinnamon flavored "whiskey" be far behind...

 

Ha! As far as I know they are holding the line against that but I haven't asked in a while!

[flahute]

9 hours ago, Kepler said:

 

Although I'm a longtime bourbon lover I've only been drinking 4R for a handful of years. FWIW, I have noticed that my best private selects are my older bottles.  Hmm ...

Due to stress on their supplies, they lowered the minimum age at which they would release barrels into the Private Selection program. Additionally, substandard barrels the would formerly go into Yellow Label are now being held for the other labels. 

I did a barrel pick last fall, and only 7 of the 10 recipes were available. Half of them were clunkers. We found a good one, but it used to be harder to choose.

[JoeTerp]

35 minutes ago, flahute said:

Due to stress on their supplies, they lowered the minimum age at which they would release barrels into the Private Selection program. Additionally, substandard barrels the would formerly go into Yellow Label are now being held for the other labels. 

I did a barrel pick last fall, and only 7 of the 10 recipes were available. Half of them were clunkers. We found a good one, but it used to be harder to choose.

curious as what recipes were unavailable (if you remember)

[flahute]

13 minutes ago, JoeTerp said:

curious as what recipes were unavailable (if you remember)

I can't remember because we taste blind and didn't know the recipes until after we made our selection. Looking at my photos from the day, I didn't write them down anywhere after they were revealed. The only one I can tell you for sure wasn't there was OBSK. It's a favorite of mine so I was looking for it. We ended up choosing an OESV.