The next Stitzel Weller

[flahute]

24 minutes ago, JoeTerp said:

curious as what recipes were unavailable (if you remember)

Whoops! I lied. Just found a photo of the barrel list (it wasn't where I thought it would be).

Barrels we had were: OESO, OESV, OESK, OBSV, OBSQ, OBSF. (Looks like we only had 6). 

[JoeTerp]

1 hour ago, flahute said:

I can't remember because we taste blind and didn't know the recipes until after we made our selection. Looking at my photos from the day, I didn't write them down anywhere after they were revealed. The only one I can tell you for sure wasn't there was OBSK. It's a favorite of mine so I was looking for it. We ended up choosing an OESV.

Thanks.  My favorite PS to date was a 10 year OBSK.  I've noticed that I've seen some OBSK's that were right around 8 years so I guess it's not a surprise that their stock is a little bit lower right now.

[JoeTerp]

55 minutes ago, flahute said:

Whoops! I lied. Just found a photo of the barrel list (it wasn't where I thought it would be).

Barrels we had were: OESO, OESV, OESK, OBSV, OBSQ, OBSF. (Looks like we only had 6). 

That's what I get for responding before going to the second page.

 

Thanks for the info 

[BourbonGuy]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 9:16 PM, Whiskey Dick said:

who knows?

 

I doubt many people thought in the 80-90's that SW was the revered bourbon it is today.

 

 

 

 

that said, I'll say it again. SAOS is the new WFE, and probably heading down the same path, unfortunately.

I thought about Smooth Ambler and what would happen if they aged a few dozen barrels of their wheated bourbon for 15 years.  I also was hoping Makers Mark might age their Cask for 15 to 20 years.  They may come close to Pappy 15

[The Black Tot]

I think the next (already) SW is Buffalo Trace.

 

And from what many have said here, BT is far and away more consistent with their better distillate than SW ever was.

 

What among the BT mashbills is a dog? #1 is great, #2 is great, the wheated is great, the ryes are great...

 

Lest we forget that the WLWs, OWAs and W12s that we enjoy so much are the runts and the leftovers, after the VW team has raided the picks of the litter.

 

The only things BT gives us to bitch about are that they can't make enough of every single thing they make, and they have to drop age statements because they're under that pressure for now.

 

Like all the majors, what they need are more rackhouses right now, in order to address this problem down the line. SW had lots of space for the demands of the time.

Edited February 4, 2017 by The Black Tot

[Hop]

Well said...

[BourbonGuy]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 2:03 AM, The Black Tot said:

I think the next (already) SW is Buffalo Trace.

 

And from what many have said here, BT is far and away more consistent with their better distillate than SW ever was.

 

What among the BT mashbills is a dog? #1 is great, #2 is great, the wheated is great, the ryes are great...

 

Lest we forget that the WLWs, OWAs and W12s that we enjoy so much are the runts and the leftovers, after the VW team has raided the picks of the litter.

 

The only things BT gives us to bitch about are that they can't make enough of every single thing they make, and they have to drop age statements because they're under that pressure for now.

 

Like all the majors, what they need are more rackhouses right now, in order to address this problem down the line. SW had lots of space for the demands of the time.

I guess they are the next SW, since they already make the "new Pappy".  Curious though...Its is good.  But it is not the same.  So a few questions come to mind:

With the skill of the Harlen Wheatley why isn't the same?  Is that by choice?   Do they actually try to duplicate the original or just doing their interpretation?  Could they make an exact duplicate if they make the decision to do so? 

 

Also, how many years have they been remaking Pappy?  Over 10 years?  You would think you would see more Old Rip Van Winkle 10 year by now.

[Old Dusty]

1 hour ago, BourbonGuy said:

 

With the skill of the Harlen Wheatley why isn't the same?  Is that by choice?   Do they actually try to duplicate the original or just doing their interpretation?  Could they make an exact duplicate if they make the decision to do so? 

 

Also, how many years have they been remaking Pappy?  Over 10 years?  You would think you would see more Old Rip Van Winkle 10 year by now.

The broad answer to your first set of questions is that they are trying to make a top shelf wheated bourbon. Using the same mashbill as S-W. What you are tasting is as close as they can get given the plethora of variables (some they can control and some they can't) between what was made (now more than two decades go) in Shively and what is being produced in Frankfort. Think of all of the components that they can't duplicate or would be expensive to do-grain source, water source, yeast(unless they propagated the same one),  wood program for the barrels, rickhouse location and style. Milling technique, fermenting vessel/temp/ltime, barrel entry proof. The list goes on. Just look at Makers. The Samuels got the recipe from Pappy and their products don't taste like S-W either. 

 

Even if Diageo fires up the stills at Shively the water source is gone and likely many of the other sources of raw materials. I highly doubt even they could replicate the exact profile. Ed Foote is still with us so maybe he could work some magic there. 

 

To your last point, I think we are getting to the point where they ramped up production enough (in '06/'07)that we will start seeming more 10 and 12 year. From the allocation lists I saw this year there was an outsized number of Lot B compared to the other expressions. And the age of the OWA barrel picks is rising (now 8 and 9 year are pretty commonly reported). That to me is the most promising sign. 

[The Black Tot]

I also remember discussion of how BT used to distill only in the fall and spring, or at least predominately in the fall and spring, when temperatures were optimal for fermentation and whatever else.

 

These days, they have to run the stills hard, year round. Now, maybe they've put in climate control systems which are said to offset the negative effects of distilling in a less ideal season, but I don't know.

 

I was more than a little disappointed when Diageo announced they wouldn't refurbish the SW still. Or blueprint it using modern 3D imaging and replicate a new one. It's their money, but, I mean, in addition to a great whiskey tradition, what a marketing powerhouse that could have been!

 

Yeasts and fermentation strategies are a very powerful argument. On the other hand, I've had some pretty bitchin' mid-2000s OWA that I reckon could hold it's own against SW - BT has done it before!

 

Agree with Old Dusty that we've almost hit the point where the ramp up should be coming down through the pipes. It would be heartwarming to see the return of the 7yr OWA age statement, but I'm not holding my breath certainly over the next 5yrs.

 

I also forgot to mention the Experimental projects and Warehouse X - BT isn't sitting on their laurels. I'm pretty sure whatever remaining part of the code they haven't cracked, they're going to get there!

 

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by The Black Tot

[The Black Tot]

I'll add my suspicion about water sources to the mix here.

 

Every distillery tour goes on and on about their water source - everyone has the best, from a magic spring from which they pulled the ark of the covenant, etc...

 

I'm being flip, but I'm very suspicious that in this day and age we can't figure out how to engineer ideal water chemistry. Water chemistry isn't particularly complex.

 

I place more faith in the characteristics of old growth grains and yeasts, which HAVE demonstrably changed quite a bit over the years, and are the component you can't just add the right minerals and adjust to requirements.

 

There's that company close to Danville now that's resurrecting old yeast strains for whiskey production. THAT excites me. The nascent Castle and Key distillery (nee Old Taylor) has elected to get a bespoke replica of an ancient yeast for their distillations. Hopefully they deliver us a breakthrough - we can use all the breakthroughs we can get!

[bourbon4all]

I read an article or perhaps a book talking about the change in grain. Good distilleries try to purchase non gmo corn because  they consider gmo to have inferior taste but because of cross pollination there will soon be no non gmo corn left. 

SO, will it ever taste the same?

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by bourbon4all

[Old Dusty]

The unique water deal is probably overplayed, but the limestone water with little iron seems to be a big deal. All,of the KY distilleries (and MGP) have access to that though. SW supposedly drew from a well on site that is now contaminated. That's why I listed water source as a variable. And I didn't even mention many others like the heads and tails cuts. Supposedly used to be much tighter keeping a smaller heart of the run. 

[portwood]

The answer depends on what you are really asking:

"what will be the next SW?" - as in "what will be the next whiskey everyone on the planet covets as investment grade"? That's impossible to answer. It could be ANYTHING, and it may not even be whiskey!!! My bet is: Brandy, more specifically, Armagnac.

 

"what will be the next SW?" - as in "what will look/taste and replicate the "brand" we now know as PvW" That's only slightly easier than impossible. The industry can try to replicate ingredients, mash bill, equipment, barrels, warehouses, etc BUT at the end of the day not all variables will ever match ... just as no two barrels ageing side-by-side are ever exactly the same.

 

Unless you're trying to make money from the next fad, why bother trying to look for the next SW? Buy and drink what you like. Chances are, you may get lucky that stuff that ends up in your bunker will be what everyone is going crazy about 10/15/20 years from now!

 

Cheers

[musekatcher]

45 minutes ago, portwood said:

The answer depends on what you are really asking:

"what will be the next SW?" - as in "what will be the next whiskey everyone on the planet covets as investment grade"? That's impossible to answer. It could be ANYTHING, and it may not even be whiskey!!! My bet is: Brandy, more specifically, Armagnac.

 

I was thinking the same trend, and cognac as well.  There are a lot of high quality products besides Bourbon out there to enjoy.  I've got an Irish whiskey list, rum list,  Laird's 100 proof Apple Brandy, Barbayanni, Cachaca, etc.  I wish more bars carried the interesting stuff.  

[KyleCBreese]

6 hours ago, musekatcher said:

 

I was thinking the same trend, and cognac as well.  There are a lot of high quality products besides Bourbon out there to enjoy.  I've got an Irish whiskey list, rum list,  Laird's 100 proof Apple Brandy, Barbayanni, Cachaca, etc.  I wish more bars carried the interesting stuff.  

Please send any Laird's BIB my way. 

[mbroo5880i]

We won't know the next S-W until it is upon us.  There is really no way to predict.  S-W's legacy resulted from a convergence of related and unrelated events.  Those events will be difficult to replicate.  Sure, there will be limited edition and older bourbons that are highly sought after but it will difficult to achieve the cult status of S-W.  

[garbanzobean]

If we open this up to other brown spirits, Caroni may be a decent candidate.  French Brandy I dunno about.  I used to think that too, but the barriers to entry are pretty high.  I do think Copper & Kings is poised to be the High West of American Brandy, and good on them for it. 

 

Overall, I'm betting market fatigue on aged brown spirits, cocktails, craft beer, and the collectable red wines.  A bunch of people are just going to get into something else not alcohol related and stop geeking out about alcohol.

 

[namadio]

21 hours ago, The Black Tot said:

Agree with Old Dusty that we've almost hit the point where the ramp up should be coming down through the pipes. It would be heartwarming to see the return of the 7yr OWA age statement, but I'm not holding my breath certainly over the next 5yrs.

 

 

Has there been any product to date that had an age statement, removed it, and then later brought back the same age statement?

[The Black Tot]

31 minutes ago, namadio said:

 

Has there been any product to date that had an age statement, removed it, and then later brought back the same age statement?

 

Bernheim Wheat Whiskey got a 7yr age statement last year smack dab in the middle of the boom. It wasn't removed previously, I don't think (maybe it happened before I started watching this stuff). But age statements DO appear once in a blue moon.

 

I'm not holding my breath for this year, but 4 or 5yrs down the trail? I could see some age statements come back.

[emr454]

I wonder what % of overall production and sales Bernheim accounts for in Heaven Hill's brand portfolio. Never seemed like a big seller from what I've read online. To me, it seems that slapping an age statement on a product with sluggish sales may be a way to generate interest in it and boost sales. 

[BottledInBond]

1 hour ago, emr454 said:

I wonder what % of overall production and sales Bernheim accounts for in Heaven Hill's brand portfolio. Never seemed like a big seller from what I've read online. To me, it seems that slapping an age statement on a product with sluggish sales may be a way to generate interest in it and boost sales. 

I'd be willing to bet less than 1%. They also revamped the packaging after the product had only existed for a few years presumably to try to increase sales. And they made PHC edition out of it too. Still doesn't really sell from what I can tell. It isn't an offensive product, I've just never seen much reason to buy more of it. It also seems to have bizarre pricing fluctuations place to place. 

[The Black Tot]

5 minutes ago, emr454 said:

I wonder what % of overall production and sales Bernheim accounts for in Heaven Hill's brand portfolio. Never seemed like a big seller from what I've read online. To me, it seems that slapping an age statement on a product with sluggish sales may be a way to generate interest in it and boost sales. 

 

...which may be required if supply catches up to demand and the mid-shelfers have to compete with one another again.

[portwood]

On 2/6/2017 at 0:24 AM, garbanzobean said:

...people are just going to get into something else not alcohol related ...

This is the most likely scenario, as marijuana becomes legal in an increasing number of jurisdictions

[flahute]

22 minutes ago, portwood said:

This is the most likely scenario, as marijuana becomes legal in an increasing number of jurisdictions

Marijuana has been legal here for a couple years now. Interest in bourbon has not slowed down a bit since then. Time will tell if it stays that way of course.

[The Black Tot]

1 hour ago, flahute said:

Marijuana has been legal here for a couple years now. Interest in bourbon has not slowed down a bit since then. Time will tell if it stays that way of course.

 

The bourbon boom certainly took more than a few years to ramp up.