New era of bourbon

[Marvin]

There is a new era of bourbon going on and I not so sure it is for the good.  It seems as though that the CEO'S of a lot of the distilleries

are coming out with different products in an effort to increase their revenue.  There are a few out there that are trying come up with a

perfect bourbon and no matter how hard they try it can't be done.  Every time they come up with something new in the way they process

and market it you are always going to get a "little junk" and sooner or later with all the expermentation going on somewhere down the

line they have to give up something and it is usually in the form of the bourbon that we have all become accustomed to and love.  It

started out with Wild Turkey years ago and now my all time favorite Ancient Age 10 year old  now that is gone so I went to

Eagle Rare single barrel and now that is not the same.  Then went to Sazarac Rye and now it is not the same as it used to be.

I have accumulated a lot of bourbon over the years and have been sampling some of the new (same brand) with the old and it

is not the same.  So in the long run this can only hurt the bourbon industry.  So wake up you CEO'S ---you have all ready had the

best bourbon and now you are cutting the age , quality.  And I say this because after trying some of the new experimental bourbon

it does not even come close to the original bourbon once made!  Get back to the basics and let us bourbon lovers decide what is best.

This is my opinion what is yours?  Cheers, Marvin

[b1gcountry]

I don't think bourbon had ever stayed the same. It is impossible to reproduce it exactly year after year, especially the single barrels vs. Blends.

There is plenty of great bourbon, and our favorites might change, but it is up to us to find the best of what is out there.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[CardsandBourbon]

I think you'll see the experimental stuff start to fade out as they realize that it is not only harder, but impossible to create that "perfect" bourbon.  I see more "tweaks" to existing lines where they don't have to try to capture an entirely new market segment every time they put out a new product.  What I don't want to see is the middle segment disappear, where all you have is bottom shelf and unicorns.  There is a lot of great bourbon out there in the $40 - $80 dollar range.

[jvd99]

2 hours ago, CardsandBourbon said:

There is a lot of great bourbon out there in the $40 - $80 dollar range.

Perhaps this ^^^ is the new era, where $40-$80 is the acceptable price nowadays for mid-tier bourbons, whereas that price range for mids was significantly lower just a few years ago

[CardsandBourbon]

1 hour ago, jvd99 said:

Perhaps this ^^^ is the new era, where $40-$80 is the acceptable price nowadays for mid-tier bourbons, whereas that price range for mids was significantly lower just a few years ago

 

For what I like to drink the range, probably more like $30 - $80, that is an acceptable figure.  I can get OGD 114  - $30, KC Single Barrel - $45, EC - $28, FR SmB - $28, FR SiB - $35 . . . What I don't find acceptable is the price gouging (ETL $100, EC 18 $250, etc.)

[flahute]

6 hours ago, Marvin said:

 It seems as though that the CEO'S of a lot of the distilleries

are coming out with different products in an effort to increase their revenue. 

This has been the goal of all distilleries since day one. All businesses seek to be increasingly profitable year after year.

[musekatcher]

2 hours ago, jvd99 said:

Perhaps this ^^^ is the new era, where $40-$80 is the acceptable price nowadays for mid-tier bourbons, whereas that price range for mids was significantly lower just a few years ago

 

When they double the price, I half my consumption rate.  Or, I find something I like for half the cost.   I'm not increasing my annual hobby budget

[CardsandBourbon]

2 hours ago, musekatcher said:

 

When they double the price, I half my consumption rate.  Or, I find something I like for half the cost.   I'm not increasing my annual hobby budget

 

Budget, what's a budget.  When I parse the word I come up with two words Bud and get, as in "Bud, you need to get your butt down to the store and buy some more bourbon.  So I guess that's what that word means. 

[ken_mays]

Sometimes they hit a home run (OF 1920).  Most of the time we are stuck with things like Cooper's Crap.

 

Get ready for more finished bourbons as they try to substitute other flavor for time in the barrel.

[Don Birnam]

On April 21, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Marvin said:

 

This is my opinion what is yours?  Cheers, Marvin

 

Why are you blaming the distilleries and their CEO's?

Blame yourself and your fellow 'enthusiasts' who buy far more than they can drink and sit on it like bourbon is coming to an end.

If you didn't buy so much there would be more for others to purchase, if more people can get it, there wouldn't be a 'shortage', no shortage, no ramping up production and the necessary trade-offs involved that you are complaining about.

Also, if you didn't have all that old stock to taste compare, well.....you wouldn't even know it had changed. Problem solved, buy what you can drink in the near future.

[Louisiana]

 

25 minutes ago, Don Birnam said:

Blame yourself and your fellow 'enthusiasts' who buy far more than they can drink and sit on it like bourbon is coming to an end.

If you didn't buy so much there would be more for others to purchase, if more people can get it, there wouldn't be a 'shortage', no shortage, no ramping up production and the necessary trade-offs involved that you are complaining about.

Also, if you didn't have all that old stock to taste compare, well.....you wouldn't even know it had changed. Problem solved, buy what you can drink in the near future.

 

 

I was just enjoying some old stock last night. Thankfully that big bunker I have is paying off. This can be such a fun hobby if you want it to be!

 

Cheers,

Jeff

 

 

[smokinjoe]

11 minutes ago, Don Birnam said:

 

Why are you blaming the distilleries and their CEO's?

Blame yourself and your fellow 'enthusiasts' who buy far more than they can drink and sit on it like bourbon is coming to an end.

If you didn't buy so much there would be more for others to purchase, if more people can get it, there wouldn't be a 'shortage', no shortage, no ramping up production and the necessary trade-offs involved that you are complaining about.

Also, if you didn't have all that old stock to taste compare, well.....you wouldn't even know it had changed. Problem solved, buy what you can drink in the near future.

A few thousand people buying in excess (difficult to quantify this) doesn't even remotely have an impact on the supply imbalance the bourbon market is currently in.  

[bourbon4all]

17 hours ago, CardsandBourbon said:

 

Budget, what's a budget.  When I parse the word I come up with two words Bud and get, as in "Bud, you need to get your butt down to the store and buy some more bourbon.  So I guess that's what that word means. 

ha good stuff

[jvd99]

3 hours ago, Don Birnam said:

 

If you didn't buy so much there would be more for others to purchase, if more people can get it, there wouldn't be a 'shortage', no shortage, no ramping up production and the necessary trade-offs involved that you are complaining about.

 

Geez, I'm feeling so guilty right now. 

[kwshannon]

23 hours ago, CardsandBourbon said:

 

For what I like to drink the range, probably more like $30 - $80, that is an acceptable figure.  I can get OGD 114  - $30, KC Single Barrel - $45, EC - $28, FR SmB - $28, FR SiB - $35 . . . What I don't find acceptable is the price gouging (ETL $100, EC 18 $250, etc.)

 

Agree.  My sweet spot is KC, 4RSmB, MM, ER.  In my state I can get those for $30-40.  

 

MMCS or 4RSB PS top out in the $60-80 range when I want one.  

 

I would love to find one of the limiteds, but not going to spent the 100+ that most will cost.

[Agalloch]

4 hours ago, Don Birnam said:

 

Why are you blaming the distilleries and their CEO's?

Blame yourself and your fellow 'enthusiasts' who buy far more than they can drink and sit on it like bourbon is coming to an end.

If you didn't buy so much there would be more for others to purchase, if more people can get it, there wouldn't be a 'shortage', no shortage, no ramping up production and the necessary trade-offs involved that you are complaining about.

Also, if you didn't have all that old stock to taste compare, well.....you wouldn't even know it had changed. Problem solved, buy what you can drink in the near future.

I was thinking this recently. How can a few thousand people buying 5 to 10 years worth of bourbon in one year not cause bourbon shortage. Not to mention new people getting into bourbon because of the trend.

[smokinjoe]

34 minutes ago, Agalloch said:

I was thinking this recently. How can a few thousand people buying 5 to 10 years worth of bourbon in one year not cause bourbon shortage. 

You're confusing short-term individual product availability issues with industry wide supply/demand imbalances.  Two entirely different situations.  You could say the former is simply a symptom of the latter.  

[musekatcher]

12 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

You're confusing short-term individual product availability issues with industry wide supply/demand imbalances.  Two entirely different situations.  You could say the former is simply a symptom of the latter.  

 

I think I agree with this.  I've probably stock piled about twice my consumption (2 to 1) in special or selective items, and a few regulars that I anticipate disappearing, loosing age statements, loosing proof, etc.  But when I go into any store, they are always at 90% or more shelf capacity.  There's plenty of quality bourbon on the shelf at various prices.  Its almost circular:  folks want what ISN'T on the shelf.  If there were always 30 bottles of PVW in the store at MSRP, they'd never run out. 

[Vosgar]

1 hour ago, Agalloch said:

I was thinking this recently. How can a few thousand people buying 5 to 10 years worth of bourbon in one year not cause bourbon shortage. Not to mention new people getting into bourbon because of the trend.

Here's how:

 

 

 

There's been 3,000,000+ barrels of whiskey in inventory for decades. If you figure a range of 150-225 bottles per barrel, that's a helluva lot more bourbon than a few thousand "enthusiasts" could ever make a dent in, regardless of how much we bought. However, as Smokinjoe noted, individual product availability is one thing, especially for single barrel releases, versus total product supply.

 

This chart is from the 2017 Economic Impact Study I found at the bottom of this web page: http://kybourbon.com/bourbon_culture-2/key_bourbon_facts/

 

And yes.....I do have too much time on my hands  

Edited April 22, 2017 by Vosgar

[Agalloch]

5 minutes ago, Vosgar said:

Here's how:

 

Interesting, theyve been ramping up for a while now.

[Don Birnam]

2 hours ago, Vosgar said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting data.

I seems that between 2012 and 2015 production ramped up by a million barrels, but in the same period inventory grew by approximately two million barrels. So I am to believe a million fewer barrels sold? Or that someone played some Barry White in the rackhouse and the casks had babies. 

Maybe that is where all the crappy immature small barrel whiskey came from.

 

Oh and I reread Marv's post and I see in my moment of clarity he mentions his Eagle Rare Single Barrel has changed. That sort of is what happens with SINGLE barrel expressions.

 

[smokinjoe]

I

13 minutes ago, Don Birnam said:

 

 

Oh and I reread Marv's post and I see in my moment of clarity he mentions his Eagle Rare Single Barrel has changed. That sort of is what happens with SINGLE barrel expressions.

 

 

Seeing how far Marvin goes back in our passion and the overall gist of his post, I'm figuring he's referring to Lawrenceburg ERs.  

[garbanzobean]

On 4/21/2017 at 3:38 PM, CardsandBourbon said:

 

For what I like to drink the range, probably more like $30 - $80, that is an acceptable figure.  I can get OGD 114  - $30, KC Single Barrel - $45, EC - $28, FR SmB - $28, FR SiB - $35 . . . What I don't find acceptable is the price gouging (ETL $100, EC 18 $250, etc.)

If we get through this boom (or long term market expansion, depending on your outlook) and the worst that happens is that I am paying $30-$80 for nearly all of my favorite bourbons, I will indeed be very happy.  Because that price range in single malt land is beginning to look a lot more like what our $15-$29 price range is right now.  Some very good stuff there but increasingly young.

[GaryT]

Folks like us bunkering aren't the issue as Joe pointed out.  My thoughts:

 

1.  Word got out that bourbon (and really good bourbon) can be delicious.  Which is great for the industry long term.  With a product that takes years to produce, an unexpected demand surge is going to drive some tough decisions, and while tinkering with the product can frustrate some fans, it is more logical than only driving up price to curb demand (which is against your long term goals as well).

 

2.  As word continued to spread and supply was short - folks who hadn't ever tried a PVW or BTAC (or an ETL) were prepared to pay 3X to 15X retail for the chance to do it.  THIS created an opportunity for folks to help connect those buyers with stock they couldn't find on their own.  Or to just buy up everything they could to take advantage of those who could find if they had beaten them to the store (either way - flippers).  I know I spent a lot (at the time) of money on a flight of BTAC back in 2011 when I hadn't ever had it, and wanted to see what all the buzz was about.  And my first taste of WLW - I was prepared to shell out $125 a bottle if I had the chance (when it was $80 at the time I think?)  

 

3.  After some of these folks paid many multiples of retail . . .  many weren't deterred.  They didn't pay $100 for an ETL and spit it out in disgust.  Hell, why would they - that's a really nice bourbon!  Sure, we know it used to be a really nice bourbon at $25-$30.  To them, that's like my Dad reminding me when he could buy a gallon of gas for $0.39 (or some other number that seems absurd today).  Doesn't matter that we're not talking about a long time ago - that time is gone.  So if ETL cost $100, and they really enjoy it - that's what they'll continue to pay.  Wishing we could pay $0.39 a gallon for gas in today's market isn't rational.

 

Do I miss the days of just walking into some regular stores when I was running low on OWA or W12 in order to mix up more SB Blend?  Sure.  But it is what it is.  And it isn't all bad.  I love that we're seeing new products like port-finished bourbons, or whiskies like HW Campfire.  Some of their experimentation has created some really tasty stuff, and I hope they continue.  

 

Thinking the producers need to change (when they're enjoying more profits than they have in a while, and are investing a good portion into increasing production) seems illogical to me.  When the environment/ecosystem change, I think those living in it have to adapt - or they find life to be gradually more difficult until they go extinct.  Let's not do that (if just to hang around and irritate millennials)  

 

[Flyfish]

On 4/21/2017 at 4:05 PM, flahute said:

This has been the goal of all distilleries since day one. All businesses seek to be increasingly profitable year after year.

Not just businesses. Raise you hand if you would pass on the opportunity to make more money. Ultimately, the businesses that make more are the ones that are better at satisfying their customers. Some distilleries get more of my money because they do a better job of meeting or exceeding my expectations. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Flyfish