Whisky Advocate Fake Whisky Issue

[jvd99]

The latest issue of Whisky Advocate magazine came in the mail today and the cover story, along with several additional articles, are dedicated to counterfeit whisky.  While this problem has mostly been in the single malt world, counterfeiting bourbon is discussed throughout the articles.  Of note is a big ole picture of a fake PVW23 and I can't tell why it's fake (they don't explain why in the caption), even comparing an authentic bottle from my own stash.  There's also a great one-page pictorial with tips on how to spot a fake, unfortunately, having the bottle in-hand is essential.  The take away from the issue is be very wary of the secondary market.  It's worth a read for novice and experts alike.

 

[BourbonDude]

Very interesting. 

 

For myself, I guess I'm not too worried as I've never bought anything on the secondary market, even wine.

[Swamp55]

That article made me go to my cabinet to double check my bottles.  Fortunately, all of them look legit to me.

 

 

[jvd99]

Nice Pappiez!!

[Harry in WashDC]

3 hours ago, jvd99 said:

The latest issue of Whisky Advocate magazine came in the mail today and the cover story, along with several additional articles, are dedicated to counterfeit whisky.  While this problem has mostly been in the single malt world, counterfeiting bourbon is discussed throughout the articles.  Of note is a big ole picture of a fake PVW23 and I can't tell why it's fake (they don't explain why in the caption), even comparing an authentic bottle from my own stash.  There's also a great one-page pictorial with tips on how to spot a fake, unfortunately, having the bottle in-hand is essential.  The take away from the issue is be very wary of the secondary market.  It's worth a read for novice and experts alike.

 

Agreed.  Even with my bad eyesight and the WA's tiny print, I enjoyed the article.  Being a drinker, not a collector, I'm not too worried unless I'm in some obscure store that is offering unicorns for less than I'd expect.  The helpful hints have been noted.  Other articles are fun, too.  I am not sure about Texas being the next bourbon state, though.  Fred Minnick tells a nice story, but . . .

[PaulO]

Yeah, TX is the next bourbon state - to go for bourbon made in KY.  

Aren't a lot of the counterfeits legit bottles that were refilled with something else?

[jvd99]

11 hours ago, PaulO said:

 

Aren't a lot of the counterfeits legit bottles that were refilled with something else?

 

Yes, the articles specifically pointed out refilling authentic bottles are the easiest way to produce a fake because the closure is the only part that needs to be forged.  That's why I would never in a million years buy a FR bottle on the secondary or at auction because the closure is a two cent piece of shrink wrap plastic.  The article also noted that numerous empties are available on eBay and the author doubted they were all being turned into candle holders and lamps thus raising the question of whether the sellers of empties are complicit in the fraud.  

[kevinbrink]

2 hours ago, jvd99 said:

 

Yes, the articles specifically pointed out refilling authentic bottles are the easiest way to produce a fake because the closure is the only part that needs to be forged.  That's why I would never in a million years buy a FR bottle on the secondary or at auction because the closure is a two cent piece of shrink wrap plastic.  The article also noted that numerous empties are available on eBay and the author doubted they were all being turned into candle holders and lamps thus raising the question of whether the sellers of empties are complicit in the fraud.  

This suggestion lead to a "lively" conversation here not all that long ago.

[jvd99]

5 hours ago, kevinbrink said:

This suggestion lead to a "lively" conversation here not all that long ago.

Just shows SB continues to trend ahead of the curve

[sbsbsb]

You mention they show a PVW23 fake in the picture...can you see the seal clearly?  Is it wax or the newer foil?  Anyone able to scan the pic?

[LongGone]

On 9/6/2017 at 6:10 PM, Swamp55 said:

That article made me go to my cabinet to double check my bottles.  Fortunately, all of them look legit to me.

 

 

Good work here. I agree - you have nothing to worry about.

[GaryT]

My issue came in the mail yesterday, and I definitely look forward to the read.  Have seen some pictures posted of fake BTACs next to the real ones - and while they could pinpoint differences - I doubt 99% of folks would spot them (and that 1% would be challenged if they didn't have a known quantity to do a side-by-side visual!)  Definitely will be sticking with reputable sources for acquisitions!

[sbsbsb]

Where are these pics of fake BTAC's next to the real ones?  

[GaryT]

26 minutes ago, sbsbsb said:

Where are these pics of fake BTAC's next to the real ones?  

I'll see if I can dig them up - they were in one of the numerous fb groups.  Facebook doesn't have a great search function unfortunately.  

[GaryT]

Here's one example of a fake GTS next to a real one.  There are folks who have tracked down known fakers by tracing empty bottles sold on eBay to those same bottles being sold later with whiskey in them.  It is absolutely happening in the bourbon world - have no doubt.  Is it happening often?  My guess is most bottles aren't fake - but I wouldn't want to take the chance.  

[sbsbsb]

Completely agree with you that it's happening.  But the point made in posts above is that, other than refilling the bottle, the only "faked" part is the seal.  None of your pics show the seal.  That's also why I asked for pics of the PVW23 presented in the article.  I've still not seen pics of confirmed fakes with legit, BTAC embossed, properly applied, foil seals.

 

I have seen pics of PVW fakes that were resealed with clearly non-legit aftermarket heat-shrink seals.  I've also seen confirmed fakes with tampered seals that are obstructed by parafilm.  But still no PVW or BTAC confirmed fakes with legit seals...

 

As I've said in prior posts, I don't doubt the fraud and forgery that's occurring one bit, but I think the majority of empties that are refilled are either 1) Ending up in restaurants/bars, where the seal doesn't need to be replicated, and can be sold for $50-$100/oz all day long, 2) Forgers who are refilling and applying fake seals, parafilm, etc that would fool the untrained eye/bourbon novice who is desperate to get his/her hands on some "Pappy", and 3) Guys who want a bottle of PVW/BTAC on their home bar to pour for unsuspecting acquaintances/associates/family who are easily impressed.

[Paddy]

6 hours ago, sbsbsb said:

Completely agree with you that it's happening.  But the point made in posts above is that, other than refilling the bottle, the only "faked" part is the seal.  None of your pics show the seal.  That's also why I asked for pics of the PVW23 presented in the article.  I've still not seen pics of confirmed fakes with legit, BTAC embossed, properly applied, foil seals.

 

I have seen pics of PVW fakes that were resealed with clearly non-legit aftermarket heat-shrink seals.  I've also seen confirmed fakes with tampered seals that are obstructed by parafilm.  But still no PVW or BTAC confirmed fakes with legit seals...

 

As I've said in prior posts, I don't doubt the fraud and forgery that's occurring one bit, but I think the majority of empties that are refilled are either 1) Ending up in restaurants/bars, where the seal doesn't need to be replicated, and can be sold for $50-$100/oz all day long, 2) Forgers who are refilling and applying fake seals, parafilm, etc that would fool the untrained eye/bourbon novice who is desperate to get his/her hands on some "Pappy", and 3) Guys who want a bottle of PVW/BTAC on their home bar to pour for unsuspecting acquaintances/associates/family who are easily impressed.

^^^I beg to differ, as the photos above clearly (at least to my eyes) show that, at least in this comparison, both the front and rear labels are also being reproduced. 

[musekatcher]

On 9/7/2017 at 11:43 AM, kevinbrink said:

This suggestion lead to a "lively" conversation here not all that long ago.

To be more clear, that discussion did not focus on counterfeiting or deception.  It was related to a secondary market, or re-sale of alcohol.  The contention, was created by folks who didn't realize there is a legal way to re-sale, and to ship alcohol.  I think they are studied up now

[kevinbrink]

4 hours ago, musekatcher said:

To be more clear, that discussion did not focus on counterfeiting or deception.  It was related to a secondary market, or re-sale of alcohol.  The contention, was created by folks who didn't realize there is a legal way to re-sale, and to ship alcohol.  I think they are studied up now

I'm talking about the thread where someone said they sold there empties on Ebay.

[sbsbsb]

9 hours ago, Paddy said:

^^^I beg to differ, as the photos above clearly (at least to my eyes) show that, at least in this comparison, both the front and rear labels are also being reproduced. 

I wasn't even going to go there, but you're right, there's all types of wrong with BOTH bottles in this pic.  The one on the left, which is lighter in color, has the Limited Edition/Barrel Proof lower sticker from a WLW...both sides being the light purple that's typically on those bottles.  It also, however, has the CORRECT back label.  The one on the right, darker in color, has the correct front/lower sticker, but has an INCORRECT back label....while it has the correct GTS verbiage, the formatting is that of a WLW back label.

 

So both bottles are suspect, and we don't see the seals.  Again, if the labels can't be faked correctly, I have no doubt that the seals would be as shoddily apparent, if not more so.  

 

Honestly, you have to ask yourself if these label errors aren't intentional in order to "scare" folks who are participating in the secondary.  I mean, why would these errors occur?  If the forger has the ability to reproduce the labels to the extent that they have above, why get the details wrong?  It could even have the effect of suppressing/controlling prices on high value bottles.  Scare enough big dollar buyers away, and the legit bottles devalue as well.  

 

I have to issue a disclaimer here...I am not a part of any of these facebook groups, and never have been.

Edited September 9, 2017 by sbsbsb

[jvd99]

22 hours ago, sbsbsb said:

You mention they show a PVW23 fake in the picture...can you see the seal clearly?  Is it wax or the newer foil?  Anyone able to scan the pic?

This is a pic straight from the Whisky Advocate article 

[NDN98]

Received my issue earlier in the week, but haven't had time to start reading it yet due to work.

[sbsbsb]

2 hours ago, jvd99 said:

This is a pic straight from the Whisky Advocate article 

 

 

Thanks!  Just as I thought...wax top.  Easy to fake.  And not nearly the right shade of gold wax, regardless!

 

 Still no evidence of confirmed fakes with legit looking/properly applied BTAC/PVW foil seals...

[dcbt]

5 hours ago, NDN98 said:

Received my issue earlier in the week, but haven't had time to start reading it yet due to work.

I'm in the same boat.  I'll get to it eventually, but I have weeklies I gotta plow through first.

[musekatcher]

22 hours ago, kevinbrink said:

I'm talking about the thread where someone said they sold there empties on Ebay.

I thought that was the same thread, that went rogue with the whole re-sale thing?  I've fantasized showing up at a party with a fifth of PVW under my arm, but I'll never pay more 3 figures for anything from a state store, much less from a retailer, much much less from an individual.  I enjoy too many bourbons under $60 as it is.  There may be a double meaning in that last sentence