Do you think newer enthusiasts skip the basics too much?

[Surtur]

As a whole across all whiskey mediums of bourbon, scotch, rye, Irish and so on, I have noticed people I know and others that get into the whiskey hobby or obsession, but completely miss the fundamental steps. These are people that started by drinking Fireball, which I’m not judging, but then end up soon after buying up limiteds and whatever expensive bottles seem worthy. It seems to me the real appreciation comes from starting slowly with the basics to develop a reference point of good and great bourbons.

 

I have been a whiskey enthusiast for quite a few years now, but my first couple years consisted of sipping Wild Turkey 101 and Old Grand Dad before I knew what premium bourbon was. I bought my first nicer bottle after 2 years, Blanton’s back when it was easy to find, and I enjoyed it immensely. I have fallen victim to online hype and fancy bottles, sure. But what it comes down to is the juice and how much you’re paying for it. 

 

A few I asked the manager at my local Bevmo for some OWA and he replied that he bought it all because that’s how he prefers to make his Manhattans. That’s the sort of behavior I have noticed. People 3 months into the hobby think they need a bottle of Pappy or Stagg now. 

 

I realize I am preaching the idea of bourbon zen, as I used to post here years ago under a name and email I can’t even remember. Where is the appreciation for the $20 gems we come across? I would kill to find some Fighting Cock these days, or a decently priced Buffalo Trace. If any of this applies to the reader, I mean no offense, but it seems the industry as a whole could benefit from people learning the fundamentals. As I said, I have been guilty of star chasing too but I also earned my stripes trying every last whiskey possible for the first few years which largely translates to awful American blends, Seagrams, Canadian Club and others. I’ve tasted awful whiskey.

 

let us pontificate on the necessity of “cheap” bottles. Long live bourbon zen

 

[Kane]

I completely agree with the way of the zen, but I'm going to debate semantics I'd hesitate to call those fireball-to-pappy folks enthusiasts. Maybe collectors. They enjoy the hunt, collecting is their hobby, not the whiskey.

 

In my necessarily limited observation, the people that actually enjoy the taste of whiskey, and get excited & curious about it tend to naturally follow those fundamental steps. They "accidentally" try a WT101 at a gathering, and get intrigued. They want to know how it tastes so good, and why it tastes different from the JW Red Label and JB White they've suffered for years. Even if they drop $20/day on Starbucks without a second thought, they still spend hours on forums like this trying to decide what to buy next, EC or KC? Because it's fun. Those I call enthusiasts.

 

Going off on a tangent, I have no idea how those former people come to learn about LEs, or get drawn into the hunt. I mean, as popular as it may be, I don't randomly stumble on a lot of bourbon talk in my daily life. I know the craze because I'm in the hobby, and I make an effort to follow the news and hunt down BTAC myself (and fail miserably). But that's for another discussion.

 

 

[Richnimrod]

I know a few of these folx, and I have hope that they will develop into more knowledgeable and appreciative Bourbon-fanciers at some point.    I try to keep a good opinion of everybody until they force me to change my mind (& some have).

 

As far as the 'hidden gems' (by hidden; I mean priced below the notice of the folx you describe, Surtur), I'd suggest Early Times BIB to anyone looking for a wonderfully full-flavored Bourbon at a very good price, and as a second pick I'd add the new offering from Beam/Suntory: Master Distller's Cut (5-6 year old batch, NCF).      The Beam one may be only on the shelves for brief period, however.

[CardsandBourbon]

I'll speak from someone who used to think whiskey was Jack or Maker's Mark.  Last New Years Eve I was at a friends house and tried some different bourbons (I can't remember exactly what) and that piqued my interest.  Right after that I went to the LS with my son and purchased my first two bottles (4RSmB & BH).  Went home and using those two along with a bottle of ER my son had, did a SBSBS tasting.  That really opened my eyes to the fact that bourbons could have very different taste profiles.

 

Within a couple of weeks I had found and signed up on SB and started reading and posting.  I started with an affinity for wheaters so I gravitated towards WSR, OWA.  I also was trying to keep proofs lower, since I didn't want to fry my taste buds.  So in the last year I have gone from 0 bottles of bourbon to 70 - 75 bottles.  Some are spares for stuff I tried and knew I wanted additional bottles but about 55 are different bottles.  I've really found only two that I definitely won't buy again (Town Branch, Bird Dog SiB).  I can only think of a couple of bottles that I have that are considered bottom shelf.  I don't think that makes me a bourbon snob, just someone who, as they have gotten into bourbon, am at a stage of my life that I can afford middle to top shelf bottles so that's what I stay with.

 

As my palate developed I realized that a great number of the higher proof pours also have more developed flavor profiles.  Right now my favorites are KCSiB PS bottles in the 12 - 14 year range and Stagg Jr. 129 - 131 proof.  I'm also a fan of BT Mash Bill #2, and OGD 114, and 4R, and . . . 

 

I guess you could say I started with the basics, it's just that my basics were not bottom shelf picks, which I'm not saying aren't good, it's just not where I started.  I've yet to, and never will buy a bourbon to collect, only to drink.  If you look at it like I do, I started slowly, just got up to speed rather quickly and don't intend to slow down.

[DeepCover]

My extent of drinking whiskey straight was MM and then Gentleman Jack. I then switched to Scotch, where I climbed the ladder from JW Black to Macallan 18 within about 6 months. 

 

I was at a steakhouse with a distributor a few years ago that insisted I try PVW20. After that I started my conversion back to bourbon. However, I had no interest in starting at the bottom again. I'd been spoiled. I started looking for something attainable, yet somewhat comparable to PVW. I've branched out since and have slowly worked my way down and sideways, being more open to different price points and mashbills. I'm still a whore for wheaters, but I like many of the rye mashbills too.

[JTaylor]

I think everyone has their own path down this road. For years (decades really) I drank Beam WL and coke. I was blissfully ignorant and considered myself a "bourbon drinker" and if I wanted to get fancy and have whisky on the rocks I'd pick up a bottle of Glenmorangie. I finally graduated to KC when I built my home bar in 2004 and was looking for a "sippin' whisky" to have on hand.  Then I expanded my selection to include MM and BT and started noticing others on the shelf. I swear it was around this time I saw a tall, skinny bottle with antlers on it on the shelf and dismissed it because the antlers reminded me of Scotch. At that point I think "enthusiast" seeds were planted which led me to KBF and the Bourbon Trail for the first time in 2010 and then here (SB.com) those things combined seem to have turned enthusiasm into something else altogether... 

 

I try not to begrudge people for how they drink their whisky, and however they choose to progress down this path is going to be born of their cumulative life experiences, personal bias, desires, etc... and will be as individual as their palates. They may be missing out if they jump straight to the top shelf, but that's theirs to own. Granted, I think the experience is richer with more variety, but there's no right way or wrong way to do this.

 

I opted out of the whole KY Owl experience, Blood Oath, most of the OB series and many others that generated a bunch of interest on various sites, but this is MY journey and I get to decide which stops to get off at and which ones I'm just passing through and anybody that says I'm wrong, is wrong. 

[EarthQuake]

I don't really see the point in judging people who jump from bad bourbon straight to great bourbon, skipping the stuff that is merely good in between. The same applies to wine or scotch or food or any other hobby. I don't see why there would be a necessity for anyone to attempt to recreate the experiences that you may have hand.

 

Personally, while I recognize some $20 bottles are much better "values" than $80 limiteds, that doesn't mean I enjoy them anywhere near as much, nor would my stomach or liver appreciate it if I drank enough to really take advantage of that theoretic value. On the flip side, there are $40 bottles that I enjoy more than unicorns that sell for $100+ on the secondary, which just goes to show that value and worth is always subjective.

 

In the same sense, I recognize that a double cheese burger from McDonalds is a much better "value" than a proper burger from my favorite sit down restaurant, but I don't have any interest in eating it nor would it bring me much joy. How many McD's double cheese burgers do I need to eat to appreciate a proper burger? Do I need to study every crappy fast food burger before I truly understand burgers? In actual reality, eating burgers and drinking whiskey is not a skill or a trade that one needs to approach from the fundamental level to understand or enjoy. Sure, it may help, it may even be quite pleasurable and entertaining to do so, but it certainly is not necessary.

 

The last few years I've been on a quest to try as much whiskey as I can, and I've probably sampled near 100 different spirits. Honestly, a lot of stuff that people go on about being a great value simply is not to my personal liking. At the end of the day, you should drink what you like and what you can afford, and if what you like and can afford happens to be something other than $20 value bottles, who cares? If you can manage to find something you like without trying 100 different bottles at every price point, surely that is okay too.

Edited December 27, 2017 by EarthQuake

[musekatcher]

14 hours ago, Kane said:

 

 

In my necessarily limited observation, the people that actually enjoy the taste of whiskey, and get excited & curious about it tend to naturally follow those fundamental steps. They "accidentally" try a WT101 at a gathering, and get intrigued.

 

 I mean, as popular as it may be, I don't randomly stumble on a lot of bourbon talk in my daily life.

 

That first WT101, shaming JB, Seagrams, and ET - Sounds very familiar!  It was a gateway, but I could only muster $$ to move up to JD and GD.   I think sharing Bourbon after dinner and ball games, on camping trips, fishing, making music[my favorite outlet for sharing], and other activities is also responsible for the renewed popularity.  I also think Bourbon is American, and perhaps a recent gesture of renewed patriotism.  And some folks think there's some renewed masculinity at work, thanks to the series Mad Men and other extra-male characters in film recreating the association of bourbon and "real" men lol.  Just throwing out ideas...my story is, Empty nest = bourbon affinity reborn. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by musekatcher

[Bnrhodes3]

I am probably a perfect definition of what you are referring too, and I get it how it can be frustrating. Before this year, Jack and coke was what I thought of whiskey aside from my brother's Glenlivet (which I wasn't a fan of at first). In the middle of this summer (6ish months ago now) I started getting in to higher alcohol cocktails (think martini) and was making weekly trips to Total Wine to build up the bar.

 

I wanted to get in to whiskey cocktails but didn't want to spend a lot of money, so I ended up buying a bottle of Bulleit and Oregon Spirit Bourbon as recommended by a TW employee. Well, one day I was cleaning a few guns and didn't want to take the time to make a cocktail, so I just poured the Oregon Spirit over a big ice cube - I really enjoyed it and the curiosity was piqued. I started learning more about whisk(e)y and started making clear ice and cutting my own cubes for the hell of it. As I learned more, I started buying different bottles to try various profiles and with that came with drinking most everything neat. 

 

In these last 6 months, because of the cocktail kick, I went from knowing nothing to having a decent idea of what is going on in the world of spirits. I'll be honest, I'm not one to slowly easy in to things that interest me - I do really enjoy the hunt and collecting, I enjoy drinking the whiskies, and above it all, I appreciate the community (working from home, aside from deliveries and the occasional sales meeting, I don't get to interact with people on a regular basis like I used to, and this has brought that back in to my life).

 

In this short period of time, I have picked up a very wide and absurd range of bottles in this short period of time (close to 100 bottles now) ranging from various levels of the spectrum and a variety of whisk(e)y types including Ancient Ancient Age, OGD, Fighting Cock, Mellow Corn, Red Breast, Yama 18, various store picks and bourbon staples (OF/EC/BT/1792s), Whistlepig, Lagavulin, Dalmore, Weller, ECBP, ETL, and even ORVW and Lot B (BTAC has been within fingers reach on too many occasions already, even in the first year at it). I didn't jump straight from Jack & coke to the allocated stuff though. I have been tasting everything I can get my hands on and ~90% of those bottles have been open, tasted, and contemplated so far. 

Being that I've only been of legal drinking age for just under 6 years, I know there are many on here that have been drinking whisk(e)y for far longer than I've even been in existence, and many have probably forgotten more than I know. So, in the perspective of time alone, I can't expect to have the palate, knowledge, or understanding of this enthusiasm or industry as a whole. However, even though us 'newbs' haven't been drinking from the bottom shelf for years, it doesn't we can't have an appreciation for the hobby/industry or a thirst for knowledge and whisk(e)y 

[Surtur]

8 hours ago, EarthQuake said:

I don't really see the point in judging people who jump from bad bourbon straight to great bourbon, skipping the stuff that is merely good in between. The same applies to wine or scotch or food or any other hobby. I don't see why there would be a necessity for anyone to attempt to recreate the experiences that you may have hand.

 

Personally, while I recognize some $20 bottles are much better "values" than $80 limiteds, that doesn't mean I enjoy them anywhere near as much, nor would my stomach or liver appreciate it if I drank enough to really take advantage of that theoretic value. On the flip side, there are $40 bottles that I enjoy more than unicorns that sell for $100+ on the secondary, which just goes to show that value and worth is always subjective.

 

In the same sense, I recognize that a double cheese burger from McDonalds is a much better "value" than a proper burger from my favorite sit down restaurant, but I don't have any interest in eating it nor would it bring me much joy. How many McD's double cheese burgers do I need to eat to appreciate a proper burger? Do I need to study every crappy fast food burger before I truly understand burgers? In actual reality, eating burgers and drinking whiskey is not a skill or a trade that one needs to approach from the fundamental level to understand or enjoy. Sure, it may help, it may even be quite pleasurable and entertaining to do so, but it certainly is not necessary.

 

The last few years I've been on a quest to try as much whiskey as I can, and I've probably sampled near 100 different spirits. Honestly, a lot of stuff that people go on about being a great value simply is not to my personal liking. At the end of the day, you should drink what you like and what you can afford, and if what you like and can afford happens to be something other than $20 value bottles, who cares? If you can manage to find something you like without trying 100 different bottles at every price point, surely that is okay too.

 

I don’t really think a lot of judging is happening from the members here, all of which had excellent responses. I’m referring more to newer bourbon drinkers, as I was rightfully called out for calling them enthusiasts, that think bourbon is only good if it is named Pappy or Weller. It’s not so much about value in a bourbon, as drinking a whiskey just because it’s cheap makes as much sense as drinking one simply because it was expensive, but good bourbon does NOT have to be expensive and/or hard to find. Most of my references in this case are to people I actually know, who buy expensive bourbon or whiskey in general and then take a shot of it, followed by a chaser because it burned too much. We are commenting more on the “whiskey as a status symbol” types.

 

As far as people drinking in their price range, again bourbon is not all about drinking cheap, but these people I’m referring to have never even bothered to try base-line bourbons to see where their tastebuds truly lie. They chase Pappy because it’s rare and mythical, not because they have an affinity for aged wheaters. Nobody has to follow my path because as a previous poster mentioned, it’s his personal journey, but how can a person fully enjoy top-level bourbon without knowing what bottom shelf tastes like? Is it so wrong that people spend some time with a bottle of plain Jim Beam or Evan Williams jus to explore it? Perhaps it’s a symptom of the instant gratification we feel these days, we have to acquire the latest and greatest stuff NOW. This is where some people lose enjoyment out of actually sipping the bourbon with friends and family. I’m equally as happy at a family gathering if I’m offered Wild Turkey or William Larie Weller.

 

As I said, I’m not disavowing expensive bourbon or putting down people who hunt unicorns. Cardsandbourbon likes higher shelf and he can also afford it, which is a good combo. I too enjoy high proof bourbons and I tend to sometimes overspend on things I’m excited for. But why should a 3 month bourbon drinker have a collection of only the rare and hard to find stuff? That’s like a 16 year old with a Ferrari 

 

Anyway thanks for the replies y’all and I hope you enjoy whatever you’re sipping this evening.

[Surtur]

9 minutes ago, Bnrhodes3 said:

I am probably a perfect definition of what you are referring too, and I get it how it can be frustrating. Before this year, Jack and coke was what I thought of whiskey aside from my brother's Glenlivet (which I wasn't a fan of at first). In the middle of this summer (6ish months ago now) I started getting in to higher alcohol cocktails (think martini) and was making weekly trips to Total Wine to build up the bar.

 

I wanted to get in to whiskey cocktails but didn't want to spend a lot of money, so I ended up buying a bottle of Bulleit and Oregon Spirit Bourbon as recommended by a TW employee. Well, one day I was cleaning a few guns and didn't want to take the time to make a cocktail, so I just poured the Oregon Spirit over a big ice cube - I really enjoyed it and the curiosity was piqued. I started learning more about whisk(e)y and started making clear ice and cutting my own cubes for the hell of it. As I learned more, I started buying different bottles to try various profiles and with that came with drinking most everything neat. 

 

In these last 6 months, because of the cocktail kick, I went from knowing nothing to having a decent idea of what is going on in the world of spirits. I'll be honest, I'm not one to slowly easy in to things that interest me - I do really enjoy the hunt and collecting, I enjoy drinking the whiskies, and above it all, I appreciate the community (working from home, aside from deliveries and the occasional sales meeting, I don't get to interact with people on a regular basis like I used to, and this has brought that back in to my life).

 

In this short period of time, I have picked up a very wide and absurd range of bottles in this short period of time (close to 100 bottles now) ranging from various levels of the spectrum and a variety of whisk(e)y types including Ancient Ancient Age, OGD, Fighting Cock, Mellow Corn, Red Breast, Yama 18, various store picks and bourbon staples (OF/EC/BT/1792s), Whistlepig, Lagavulin, Dalmore, Weller, ECBP, ETL, and even ORVW and Lot B (BTAC has been within fingers reach on too many occasions already, even in the first year at it). I didn't jump straight from Jack & coke to the allocated stuff though. I have been tasting everything I can get my hands on and ~90% of those bottles have been open, tasted, and contemplated so far. 

Being that I've only been of legal drinking age for just under 6 years, I know there are many on here that have been drinking whisk(e)y for far longer than I've even been in existence, and many have probably forgotten more than I know. So, in the perspective of time alone, I can't expect to have the palate, knowledge, or understanding of this enthusiasm or industry as a whole. However, even though us 'newbs' haven't been drinking from the bottom shelf for years, it doesn't we can't have an appreciation for the hobby/industry or a thirst for knowledge and whisk(e)y 

 

Well welcome to the club! If you are offered some good and rare bourbons, then you made the right choice by jumping on the opportunity. In a nutshell I suppose the only point I wanted to make is to enjoy every glass of whiskey you’re having for what it is; take a moment with your glass to really appreciate it. Once again, I am not trying to pick on people who are new, I just am not sure that somebody who’s whiskey experience has been strictly Honey jack Daniels can fully appreciate a Four Roses Limited Edition. Enjoy your journey 

 

Cheers

[Bnrhodes3]

6 minutes ago, Surtur said:

 

Well welcome to the club! If you are offered some good and rare bourbons, then you made the right choice by jumping on the opportunity. In a nutshell I suppose the only point I wanted to make is to enjoy every glass of whiskey you’re having for what it is; take a moment with your glass to really appreciate it. Once again, I am not trying to pick on people who are new, I just am not sure that somebody who’s whiskey experience has been strictly Honey jack Daniels can fully appreciate a Four Roses Limited Edition. Enjoy your journey 

 

Cheers

I think I can completely agree on that. When I started getting in to it, I knew I couldn't appreciate the complexity of some of the pours, and for those, I sampled a bit and shelved the bottles. So I still sampled around, but spent more of my drinking time visiting things that are easier to find. Even in this short of time, when I revisit some of those 'complex' bottles (MWND, being one), I am amazed at what I can pick out now vs then. 

As was said above, everyone has their journey, and my angle might be a little different than the average 'status' drinker you mentioned. The more I got in to this, the more I realized I enjoyed it. So a few months ago I started trying to figure out how to understand tasting/nosing profiles better (had a post about deductive tasting on here a bit ago). As that idea grew, I decided I wanted to expedite the learning to try to incorporate the hobby in to my business - I engrave things for a living, with glassware being my specialty, so I figured that getting the knowledge to host tastings would be a good way to fit something else I enjoy in to what I do for a living haha. 

Now, if someone who is just getting in to it and manages to get PVW or BTAC, then shoots it and follows with a chaser, even I would be a little 'frustrated' lol...

[cdcdguy]

I'm not sure if there is a right or wrong answer.  I started with basic stuff like JB and EW. I then moved to higher stuff like Blantons. But once we started on the Bourbon Trail and doing the tours I knew I had missed something. THAT something was the history and how bourbon is actually made. While I love higher end stuff, and I am still holding hope for a bottle of Pappy, but only at retail, I have actually climbed down the ladder and started back to the beginning. 

 

That journey has made me appreciate the basic stuff more. I learned that the big guys don't make generic junk. The quality is usually very good if not complex. And the big guys do make very good stuff in their upper lines. I am currently in the level above basic, in bottled in bond. I skipped right over it the first time jumping to rarer 12 and 14 year old stuff. That stuff is very good, but realized I had missed so much. 

 

 

Right now now I am stuck in the BIB world. Not a bad place to be! But I shall one day explore on. There is much more to go. 

[NDN98]

A few years ago, I went from a gin drinker to a Scotch drinker (started trying Scotch in preparation for a trip to Scotland) and really fell in love with Scotch.  I always assumed bourbon was Jim Beam, Evan Williams, Woodford Reserve, etc. and didn't care for it without  coke.  Then some buddies introduced me to Eagle Rare, Four Roses Single Barrel, and Old Forester Single Barrel.  I then realized bourbon had different profiles and  made great sippers, much like Scotch.  I then found a bottle of Blanton's one day and really fell in love with bourbon.  From there, I started trying different bottles of bourbon at bars and found other things I liked.  While I have tried Pappy, OFBB, 4 R Limited Editions, BTAC at bars, I still have never found any of these at my local stores.  I enjoy a side range of bourbons and still enjoy the hunt, but I don't go out of my way to find the rare bottles and so far, have refused to pay secondary prices for anything.  I am happy/content with finding the occasional bottle of Blanton's, Elmer T. Lee, Weller 12, various store picks/private selects, etc.

Edited December 27, 2017 by NDN98

[Saul_cooperstein]

My bourbon path started in college. For one year I decided to drink nothing but manhattans which in a college bar meant JD with a cherry. Strengthened my palate to be able to drink whiskey neat. Next started drinking craft beer. At liquor store I was shopping close to UCLA campus their beer and whiskey buyer were same guy. So he started pitching me on bourbons. Started with EWSB then onto Lot B and AH Hirsch 16 when had the cash to splurge ($80 back then in 99/00). Loved it and EWSB was my daily drinker back then (I think it was the 87). After college moved to wine but 3-4 years ago it was back to whiskey as focus. My wife doesn’t drink much and value of being able to have lots of whiskey open vs wine as well as a bottle lasting 15 pours vs 4...I first went crazy on secondary amassing lots and lots of expensive stuff. But the more I drink the more I have found my sweet spot - with most of it mid shelf retail (WT101 and 101 rye). Still occasionally dip into secondary for dusties like 90’s 8/101 or ND OGD114 that are just so divergent from anything currently available (and don’t impact current supply chain in same way as Le flipping). So I guess I started at top of market 15-20 years ago (lot B / AHH16) returned to top of market when I came back to whiskey (secondary) but have since gone zen (mid shelf and knowing my sweet spot). 

[Saul_cooperstein]

Change from whiskey to wine and back to whiskey also tracked with dining preferences. After college gained affinity for fine dining and this wine became winner 3-4 years ago my like of fine dining shifted to more casual restaurants - still with great food. I guess I found dining zen first on pathway to bourbon zen. 

[mortre]

I started like most I would wager, taking shots at parties and bars. Mostly for my group of friends that meant JD, JB with some 151 and jagermister thrown in. Then one day I decided to mix it up and I ordered a round of WT. It blew my mind that I had found a shot that didn't cause "whiskey face", but that was as far as it ever went for a while. Years later I got married and basically quit drinking. I did a lot of heavy, unhealthy binge style drinking in the service and now we we're raising children and I didn't want them to remember a slobbering drunkard for a father.

Eventually we started drinking a glass of wine with special dinners, but my wife and I had very different tastes in wine. We wasted a lot of wine because we wouldn't drink enough to get tipsy and wine just doesn't save well.

Fast forward a few more years and I had some big things going on in my life, my career was going well and I was hitting milestones in my education. Things like various industry certifications, promotions and such. I wanted to celebrate, but didn't want to keep throwing away wine so liquor was my only real option. I knew i didn't have the patience for cocktails, but I remembered the wild turkey! I did a little research and cross referenced the whiskey aisle at the class so and came home with a bottle of eagle rare. It was horrible, at first. I started having a small put in a wine glass at night while trying to teach my wife how to play chess. After a few nights I smelled vanilla on the nose for the first time. It was like a light bulb went off, and I've had a 3 or 4 pours a week since. I get a bottle I've never tried almost every time, and I've bought a range of whiskey from bottom to top shelf.

Unlike most, I do not have a collection. At this point my kids are 16, 14 and 4 and I'm sure if I had a collection some of it would mysteriously disappear or become watered down. So I generally limit myself to a normal proof and a call strength bottle. I've realized that some "good bourbon" I just dislike. ETL I found unpalatable, and I disliked Blanton's as well. I found WT101 better than RR10 as well. But as a general rule of thumb, they do get better as the price goes up.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[flahute]

Addressing the OP's original question: yes, I do think that too many new enthusiasts do skip over the fundamentals and middle shelves as they seek to go straight to the top.

Though I get what EarthQuake is saying, there's a big class of whiskey drinkers who do this for status so to speak rather than for what they think tastes the best. 

I've brought this up numerous times before in the various discussions about the boom because part of the boom and part of the issue with LE's being so hard to find is driven by these guys.

We live in the social media era and with whiskey suddenly being cool again a large number of these new enthusiasts posts photos of their trophies on Facebook, Instagram, and the like in search of as many likes as they can get. Ask those same guys what they think of Rare Breed or Henry McKenna and they won't be able to tell you because they've never tried it. There's a lot of new blood in this hobby with money to spend and in addition to going straight to the top with the LE's they are going to buy anything they can with a high number age statement and anything in a fancy bottle priced north of $100.

The NDP's know this which is why we have the Blood Oath and Magnus lines and others like them and why Diageo keeps finding new extensions for the Orphan Barrel line.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with liking any of these whiskies. We know from Nancy Fraley who posts here that a lot of quality and care goes into the Magnus line. None of us like the pricing however. (She doesn't either, but that's not her department). 

I used to be in a lot of whiskey facebook groups. I dropped out of all of them because the constant posturing and desire for attention by those who clearly didn't know anything. But hey, look at me and this photo of $150 sourced whiskey I know nothing about that I'm declaring to be the bomberist best whiskey I've ever tasted and you should respect me more because I'm drinking it. Any attempt to educate guys like this is folly because too much of their image is tied up in the worth and perceived value of their collections. 

 

To be clear again, there are plenty of us here (myself included) who will go on about Stagg or certain 4RLE's and similar. But we will also go on about VOB6 BIB, HH6 BIB, WT101, basic BT, OFSig, and the list goes on. In the end, as said above, we all get there in different ways. And we can all quickly tell who the genuine enthusiasts are who will stick around if there are no LE's to be had.

[Harry in WashDC]

16 hours ago, Bnrhodes3 said:

I     *  *  *  *  *

Being that I've only been of legal drinking age for just under 6 years, I know there are many on here that have been drinking whisk(e)y for far longer than I've even been in existence, and many have probably forgotten more than I know. So, in the perspective of time alone, I can't expect to have the palate, knowledge, or understanding of this enthusiasm or industry as a whole. However, even though us 'newbs' haven't been drinking from the bottom shelf for years, it doesn't we can't have an appreciation for the hobby/industry or a thirst for knowledge and whisk(e)y 

Being that I've only been of legal whiskey drinking age for just under 52 years, you have NO idea how much I envy your early, precocious start on your journey through bourbon.  Reminds me of a story I haven't posted here in over two years so it is time to repeat myself.

 

A young bull looked down a hill at a herd of cows and said to the old bull,  "Let's run down the hill and try a few."  Old bull said,  "Let's walk down and try them all."

 

Here endeth the lesson, to quote Sean Connery in Kevin Costner's "The Untouchables".

[Richnimrod]

I'll make one more comment, then I'm shutting my trap about it....

I feel that too many new-to-the-avocation folx want to achieve credibility and status as soon as possible in order to gain the 'acceptance' or status in the various social groups to which they belong (or wish to belong). 

That is a pretty natural reaction of most humans when entering a new realm, and I think it's understandable. 

But I think they do themselves at least a temporary disservice when they cheat themselves out of the progression of Bourbon types, brands, and yes: prices, that have been more naturally experienced by many of us in simpler, slower paced (non-social-media) times over a period of years.     This deeper, slower paced indoctrination in the hobby allowed many folx a much more thorough "tour" through Bourbonia.    Just my own opinion, of course.

[Bnrhodes3]

1 hour ago, Harry in WashDC said:

Being that I've only been of legal whiskey drinking age for just under 52 years, you have NO idea how much I envy your early, precocious start on your journey through bourbon.  Reminds me of a story I haven't posted here in over two years so it is time to repeat myself.

 

A young bull looked down a hill at a herd of cows and said to the old bull,  "Let's run down the hill and try a few."  Old bull said,  "Let's walk down and try them all."

 

Here endeth the lesson, to quote Sean Connery in Kevin Costner's "The Untouchables".

I can't even imagine the things you've tried, seen, heard, and know. I just hope I can keep this as a sustainable interest and give myself another 50 years in working toward trying everything haha. 

 

If nothing else, I'll definitely try to remember to take something away from the perspective of the old bull!

[kevinbrink]

I've been drinking whiskey to some degree for 19 years, I started out with blended scotch since that is what my family always had, mostly Dewars but occasionally Chivas. When I was in my early 20's I would just buy based on perceived value, age vs Price, from this local closeout store, at the time I remember buying a lot of Dalmore (especially Cigar Malt), The Speyside, Balvenie, Tamdhu, Glenlivet and some others lost to the sands of time.  At some point in my mid 20's I was between jobs and EC12 and ER10 were sitting on the shelf for under $20 so I gave bourbon a shot.  A friend at the time was a big WT101 guy so that was also in my normal rotation, we would pick up Bookers or Bakers as special occasion pours and other things like KC and WR would occasionally dribble in.  By my 30th birthday I had kind of fallen for BT and mostly drank just that for a few years, I was mostly drinking Craft Beer at the time anyway. In 2013 I took my first trip to Kentucky and when I got back I would occasionally pick up a bottle of something different from time to time but not with any kind of direction.  After subsequent trips in 2015 I was basically all in and developed different buying habits mostly buying $15-50 bottles though. The first time I paid more than $80 for Bourbon was December of 2015 and I didn't break $100 until last year. I honestly didn't think I had a good enough palate to appreciate expensive stuff until this year, and even now sometimes I get as much enjoyment out of a $20 bottle as I do a $100 bottle, I feel like I have a good enough grasp to match the profile of the whiskey to what I'm in the mood for and I just go with that, some nights JB BIB tastes like a million bucks.

[Harry in WashDC]

6 minutes ago, kevinbrink said:

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After subsequent trips in 2015 I was basically all in and developed different buying habits mostly buying $15-50 bottles though. The first time I paid more than $80 for Bourbon was December of 2015 and I didn't break $100 until last year. I honestly didn't think I had a good enough palate to appreciate expensive stuff until this year, and even now sometimes I get as much enjoyment out of a $20 bottle as I do a $100 bottle, I feel like I have a good enough grasp to match the profile of the whiskey to what I'm in the mood for and I just go with that, some nights JB BIB tastes like a million bucks.

Bourbon zen manifests when it feels like it.  I'm sipping on 4R SmB which I sort of badmouthed a little over on the VBT topic, but tonight it is hitting the spot.  Some people are comfortable in their own skin.  Others are comfortable with whatever seems "right" in the glass.  I don't know why - I just KNOW.

[Kepler]

I think it basically boils down to whether someone developed their love for whiskey "organically" or whether they went to the internet to learn about the subject first.  I personally had already gone through the earlier stages before wondering or caring what other "experts" thought about it.  I was a happy bourbon and coke drinker since college until a totally random (almost accidental really) distillery tour of JD distillery a decade ago changed everything for me, and slowly sent me down a circuitous route where I am today.  Only years after that original JD distillery tour (and the subsequent years of exploring my tastes and palate by simply trying a bottle here and there) did I seek out information on the internet via google search, which is how I ended up here.

I think those that go to the internet for everything may skip those steps that the OP mentions.  Probably in many cases, it's a generational thing.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Kepler

[Surtur]

7 hours ago, flahute said:

Addressing the OP's original question: yes, I do think that too many new enthusiasts do skip over the fundamentals and middle shelves as they seek to go straight to the top.

Though I get what EarthQuake is saying, there's a big class of whiskey drinkers who do this for status so to speak rather than for what they think tastes the best. 

I've brought this up numerous times before in the various discussions about the boom because part of the boom and part of the issue with LE's being so hard to find is driven by these guys.

We live in the social media era and with whiskey suddenly being cool again a large number of these new enthusiasts posts photos of their trophies on Facebook, Instagram, and the like in search of as many likes as they can get. Ask those same guys what they think of Rare Breed or Henry McKenna and they won't be able to tell you because they've never tried it. There's a lot of new blood in this hobby with money to spend and in addition to going straight to the top with the LE's they are going to buy anything they can with a high number age statement and anything in a fancy bottle priced north of $100.

The NDP's know this which is why we have the Blood Oath and Magnus lines and others like them and why Diageo keeps finding new extensions for the Orphan Barrel line.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with liking any of these whiskies. We know from Nancy Fraley who posts here that a lot of quality and care goes into the Magnus line. None of us like the pricing however. (She doesn't either, but that's not her department). 

I used to be in a lot of whiskey facebook groups. I dropped out of all of them because the constant posturing and desire for attention by those who clearly didn't know anything. But hey, look at me and this photo of $150 sourced whiskey I know nothing about that I'm declaring to be the bomberist best whiskey I've ever tasted and you should respect me more because I'm drinking it. Any attempt to educate guys like this is folly because too much of their image is tied up in the worth and perceived value of their collections. 

 

To be clear again, there are plenty of us here (myself included) who will go on about Stagg or certain 4RLE's and similar. But we will also go on about VOB6 BIB, HH6 BIB, WT101, basic BT, OFSig, and the list goes on. In the end, as said above, we all get there in different ways. And we can all quickly tell who the genuine enthusiasts are who will stick around if there are no LE's to be had.

You nailed it on the head. When I go into my liquor store and they happened to save me something a little harder to find, it’s the exception not the rule. I can not find VOB in Southern California but  it is at the top of my want list, not necessarily just the limiteds. As you said, of course the unicorns are good. However I tried this year’s WLW and for the price I believe I would rather have 3 bottles of Antique, especially with as good as my last bottle was.

 

At any rate I do agree that the shortage was largely started by these types and the vacuum that was created when limiteds turned into almost literal unicorns. Suddenly standard Buffalo Trace has become a commodity to them because the price has almost doubled and it sometimes has an empty slot on the shelf.