Is there a difference?

[DCFan]

I asked this question to Harry the other day and he thought it’d be a good topic of discussion with everyone. So here goes.

 

I really enjoy  trying different bourbons and what I originally thought was a good way to sample them before splurging on a fifth was to get miniatures. So far the results are not so good. A couple that stand out as complete taste failures are JD Rye and FC.

 

The common denominator for both is that the minis came in plastic bottles. So the question is, is there a difference between a juice that comes in a glass fifth versus a plastic mini?

[CardsandBourbon]

I think there could be if it has been in the bottle for a while.  To me things that have been in a plastic bottle after a certain amount of time pick up something from the plastic and don't from glass.  Of course I could be full of you know what and be completely wrong.

[Fishin49er]

I think maybe more important then the plastic is the amount of liquid and where it's stored. A lot of the ABC stores around me keep their mini bottles near the front of the store usually near a window. So with only 2 ounces of bourbon sitting in the direct sunlight it wouldn't take long to taint the bourbon.

[lcpfratn]

I asked this question to Harry the other day and he thought it’d be a good topic of discussion with everyone. So here goes.
 
I really enjoy  trying different bourbons and what I originally thought was a good way to sample them before splurging on a fifth was to get miniatures. So far the results are not so good. A couple that stand out as complete taste failures are JD Rye and FC.
 
The common denominator for both is that the minis came in plastic bottles. So the question is, is there a difference between a juice that comes in a glass fifth versus a plastic mini?

I think there are many problems with mini bottles that don't necessarily have anything to do with plastic vs glass. With a mini you really only have one taste, and no chance for the bottle to open up with a little air time. If you're having just one drink of something you've never tried before, and you're palate is off that evening, you may misjudge something that you might otherwise come to enjoy after further pours. I can't count the number of times that I've opened a bottle and was not impressed with the first pour, and even disliked it, but came back weeks or months later and was blown away with how good the next pour was. You don't get that opportunity with a mini bottle.

I also think minis get mistreated by vendors a lot of the time by more exposure to extreme heat, cold, sunlight, etc., which can degrade quality over time. And since there is more plastic surface exposure with a mini bottle to the amount of liquid in the bottle, just like the mini wooden barrels give more exposure to the charred wood than a typical barrel, I guess it's also possible that small plastic bottles could have detrimental effects over extended periods of time.


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[graftonbc1]

I thought that getting minis would be a good way to try some things out. To me, just about all of the whiskey minis I tried tasted the same, and not very good.  This really did an injustice to some bourbons I tried later from real bottles. Two that come to mind are Maker’s Mark and Woodford, both which I consider to be excellent bourbons. 

[cdcdguy]

I don't enjoy bourbon out of plastic bottles. I do understand you are tying to sample as many as you can. But I also think pouring a great bourbon into a plastic cup wouldn't do it any favors either.

[kevinbrink]

3 hours ago, DCFan said:

A couple that stand out as complete taste failures are JD Rye and FC.

Anything is possible, but when it comes to JD Rye, it hasn't been out that long so it's hard to believe that it was something that happened from light or time in the bottle like others have suggested. Some people here who's tastes I usually share have said nice things about it but I poured it a few times from a 750 and I find little to redeem it. FC on the other hand, especially if it was an older 6yr could have been around for a while.  I've bought my share of minis but most of the good ones come in glass anyway, some exceptions though.

[smokinjoe]

There's nothing with the plastic that would cause any sort of degradation in the quality of the whiskey.  Poor fitting closures  causing excessive oxidation or poor storing conditions in sunlight, are the likely causes of off tasting minis.

[BigRich]

There's nothing with the plastic that would cause any sort of degradation in the quality of the whiskey.  Poor fitting closures  causing excessive oxidation or poor storing conditions in sunlight, are the likely causes of off tasting minis.

Are you in plastic sales? Seems a might bit suspicious. [emoji57]


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[Harry in WashDC]

11 minutes ago, BigRich said:

Are you in plastic sales? Seems a might bit suspicious.


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Shame, Rich - picking on a person like that.  Ooooh, but I'd like to be at the next GBS meeting when you see each other across the room.

[kevinbrink]

24 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

There's nothing with the plastic that would cause any sort of degradation in the quality of the whiskey.  Poor fitting closures  causing excessive oxidation or poor storing conditions in sunlight, are the likely causes of off tasting minis.

My research which involves many 1.75's of JW Dant seems to confirm this.

[smokinjoe]

1 minute ago, BigRich said:

Are you in plastic sales? Seems a might bit suspicious.


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One word.  Plastics.  There's a great future in plastics...Or so they told me...  

[Theiano]

My two cents, I think it is very likely that there is a difference in long-term storage capability and taste between glass and plastic bottles for a couple of different reasons.

1. Absorption capability of UV light
   • Generally the glass used in bottles it thicker and able to protect from UV absorption better than thinner plastic. Less transparency will ensure the bourbon inside is impacted less (colored glass is best)
   • Depending on the plastic it may not be able to prevent as much UV (or as wide a spectrum) from penetrating as glass, even if it was the same thickness
   • Also the plastic itself can chemically break down over time due to UV, whereas glass is much more stable
2. Plastic is more permeable
   • This again is partly due to thickness, but also because plastic is generally more permeable than glass, although I'm not sure if this affect would be as prevalent as permeation through the cork/cap. It would also take a long time to have an effect. Some of the more volatile compounds is the bourbon may escape easier, dulling the flavor somewhat
   • Oxygen may also be able to penetrate into the bottle easier, potentially oxidizing some of the compounds.
3. Plastic has it's own flavor
   • Chew on some plastic and you will be able to taste some of the chemical flavor of it, at least some of these flavors may be able to diffuse into the bourbon, although it is probably minimal, some flavors can be easily detectable on the palate at very low concentrations.
   • This effect is also exacerbated with heat, have you ever drank from a plastic water bottle after it has sat in your car for a few hours on a hot day, it's absolutely horrible. Also it should be noted that generally water bottles have a best before date (due to the plastic, not the water)
4. Plastic can age far faster
   • Depending on the type of plastic, it can age and breakdown over time inherently, again this will exacerbate each of the above effects.

There are certainly plastics available which minimize the above issues, but the cost rises fairly quickly for them.  Some of the benefits of plastic include weight and handling benefits, and the corresponding ease in shipping.

[smokinjoe]

32 minutes ago, Theiano said:

My two cents, I think it is very likely that there is a difference in long-term storage capability and taste between glass and plastic bottles for a couple of different reasons.

1. Absorption capability of UV light
   • Generally the glass used in bottles it thicker and able to protect from UV absorption better than thinner plastic. Less transparency will ensure the bourbon inside is impacted less (colored glass is best)
   • Depending on the plastic it may not be able to prevent as much UV (or as wide a spectrum) from penetrating as glass, even if it was the same thickness
   • Also the plastic itself can chemically break down over time due to UV, whereas glass is much more stable
2. Plastic is more permeable
   • This again is partly due to thickness, but also because plastic is generally more permeable than glass, although I'm not sure if this affect would be as prevalent as permeation through the cork/cap. It would also take a long time to have an effect. Some of the more volatile compounds is the bourbon may escape easier, dulling the flavor somewhat
   • Oxygen may also be able to penetrate into the bottle easier, potentially oxidizing some of the compounds.
3. Plastic has it's own flavor
   • Chew on some plastic and you will be able to taste some of the chemical flavor of it, at least some of these flavors may be able to diffuse into the bourbon, although it is probably minimal, some flavors can be easily detectable on the palate at very low concentrations.
   • This effect is also exacerbated with heat, have you ever drank from a plastic water bottle after it has sat in your car for a few hours on a hot day, it's absolutely horrible. Also it should be noted that generally water bottles have a best before date (due to the plastic, not the water)
4. Plastic can age far faster
   • Depending on the type of plastic, it can age and breakdown over time inherently, again this will exacerbate each of the above effects.

There are certainly plastics available which minimize the above issues, but the cost rises fairly quickly for them.  Some of the benefits of plastic include weight and handling benefits, and the corresponding ease in shipping.

Oh my.

 

 "Depending on the type of plastic", "I'm not sure if this affect..", "some of these flavors may be able to diffuse into the bourbon", "absorption capability of UV light", "oxygen May be able  to...", "...dulling the flavor somewhat...", may, may, may, may, may...

 

Well, the weight and handling benefits and ease in shipping part was solid...

 

Personally, I prefer glass containers for my whiskey.  But simply for feel and general aesthetics.  

 

 

[Paddy]

If any of you guys come across any dusty, plastic, handles of AAA 10 yr, don't buy them...give me a call! 

[CB.]

Personally I think there is definitely a difference. Just like beer from can vs bottle.

 

WT101 for example. I use only glass, but my buddy bought a plastic 5th. My 5th tasted a lot more crisp if that makes sense. His also had cap. I think the plastic is just cheap and lets outside factors affect the liquid more. Just my 2c.

 

 

[JoeTerp]

It's certainly possible, but I would more likely guess that you just don't enjoy these that much.  I did have someone send me over a sample of a bourbon that I really wanted and it was sampled out in a little mini of Woodford.  It tasted delicious from the plastic bottle.  Now I'm guessing there was little to no light contact in there as it was shipped and then I had it in my bar cabinet for a few months before I finally got around to sampling it.

[kevinbrink]

10 hours ago, CB. said:

Personally I think there is definitely a difference. Just like beer from can vs bottle.

 

WT101 for example. I use only glass, but my buddy bought a plastic 5th. My 5th tasted a lot more crisp if that makes sense. His also had cap. I think the plastic is just cheap and lets outside factors affect the liquid more. Just my 2c.

 

 

I would be shocked if you could tell the difference between canned and bottled beer if you drank it from a glass, I've done that test myself and blind good luck picking out which is which.  Like anything else a lot of factors can be involved particularly light hitting the bottles can lead to changes in flavor especially in clear and green bottles, but apart from that different batches or carbonation levels would be the most likely difference, after a minute in the glass if you taste a difference it's probably not the container it was stored in. 

[Theiano]

13 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

Oh my.

 

 "Depending on the type of plastic", "I'm not sure if this affect..", "some of these flavors may be able to diffuse into the bourbon", "absorption capability of UV light", "oxygen May be able  to...", "...dulling the flavor somewhat...", may, may, may, may, may...

 

Well, the weight and handling benefits and ease in shipping part was solid...

 

Personally, I prefer glass containers for my whiskey.  But simply for feel and general aesthetics.  

 

 

Hey, if anyone wants to fund a scientific study as to determine whether these effects are definitive please let me know and I will give you the address to send your grant check and selection of full & sealed glass and plastic whiskey bottles.

[smokinjoe]

1 hour ago, Theiano said:

Hey, if anyone wants to fund a scientific study as to determine whether these effects are definitive please let me know and I will give you the address to send your grant check and selection of full & sealed glass and plastic whiskey bottles.

Outside of the what I quoted, I thought you wrote with so much conviction with the bullet points and numbers, and everything, I thought you were already working on it, but just hadn't finished yet!  

[GaryT]

I swear by this strategy (buy in minis when you can before splurging on a 750), and have yet to have something I tried in a mini that I didn't like but later liked enough from a full bottle to buy a full bottle of.  If it is a newer offering like the JD Rye, unless it was sitting in the sun or something, I'd assume it is a fair representation of what it would taste like from the full sized bottle.  

[HoustonNit]

Are you in plastic sales? Seems a might bit suspicious. [emoji57]


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Lol

[HoustonNit]

I may have a job for you, that is, unless you're still married to that broken-down building and loan. Ha, ha, ha. It's the biggest thing since radio and I'm lettin' you in on the ground floor. [to Mary] Will you tell that guy I'm giving him the chance of a lifetime? You hear - the chance of a lifetime.

Mary: He says it's the chance of a lifetime.

[the phone suddenly drops to the floor as George grabs Mary]

George: Now, you listen to me! I don't want any plastics, and I don't want any ground floors, and I don't want to get married - ever - to anyone! You understand that?

[DeepCover]

The "plastic" likely makes no difference at all. Certainly not with the fairly short shelf life of a mini.

 

Lots of generalizations about "plastics" here. Very few are the same. PET, HDPE, PP, PLA, etc. are all very, very different.

 

Even within the same family they are different. Let's use PP (polypropylene) for example: what catalyst is used? Is it a phthalate-based catalyst, di-ether, succinate, mixed, etc.? What additive package is used? What process aid is being used? What FDA conditions does it meet (food contact, cooking, autoclave, etc.). Is it a homopolymer, copolymer, terpolymer? What are the comonomers used in the copolymer  (butene, ethylene, octene, etc.). What production technology is used (yes, they are quite different)? How are you boosting the melt flow (reducing viscosity)? Normally you boost the MFR, reducing viscosity, by visbreaking (using peroxide), which directly impacts which FDA standards you hit (typically conditions A - H are the target). These are just a few of the factors to consider. 

 

HDPE and other polyolefins are just as complex.

[HoustonNit]

^DC I would think the manufacturing process of plastic bottle minis is pretty standard, and comes from a very small hand full of suppliers. From what I understand that’s how aluminum can manufacturing works with Ball providing the bulk of cans.

I hope you and SmokingJoe don’t get too much into talking shop.