Other Groups (facebook, etc...)

[JTaylor]

Well, I dropped out of the Michigan facebook bourbon group I had joined... seemed mostly like a good enough group of guys, and the LS owners on there seemed on the up and up and I ended up with some good intel on some nice store picks and an Al Young meet and greet which I attended (which was great). But the blatant and excessive flipping going on just rubbed me the wrong way and ended up pushing me out...

 

At first I just tried to see it in the same light they justified it through... A guy buys a LE fully intending to drink it and suddenly has a personal issue and needs the dough, "who are we to criticize his decision to sell it..." Well, when the sales are multiple LE bottles DAILY I'm pretty sure they're just flippers.... anyway, I tried just seeing it in a purely capitalist sense too; they bought an object, they own it, this is America, they can do with it as they please... and it still bothered me...

 

I think the profiteering part of it just gets me... that you would buy something you don't even want, that is limited, with the sole intention of profiting off someone else's inability to find it just seems selfish, greedy, and somewhat petty. If this is what you gotta do to make $400 or $500 bucks... I'm sorry for you, it really isn't much different than outright stealing IMHO. Then there are the guys who are buying / bidding on the stuff giving the flippers a reason to exist in the first place! Who's really to blame here??? There's one born every minute I guess... Does anybody have a dissenting opinion on this? Am I just a bourbon snob?

 

 

[Fishin49er]

I get what you're saying but I think for most of us we're only annoyed by it because it's the hobby we're passionate about. If you found a vintage vinyl record at a thrift store for $5 but you knew you could sell it online for a couple hundred dollar profit, would you not do it? I'm also big into fly fishing. I once found a fly reel spool at a deep discount in Cabela's, I bought it and sold it for about an $80 profit. I don't think that makes me a bad guy. I recently acquired a bottle of ORVW10 for $80. The idea of selling it for $400-$500 and using all that profit to buy a bunch of other bourbon definitely crossed my mind.  At the end of the day it's all about supply and demand, if there's people out there willing to pay the secondary prices there will always be a secondary market. On the other hand, I just saw a GTS for sale in a store for $400, is that any different?

[JTaylor]

10 minutes ago, Fishin49er said:

I get what you're saying but I think for most of us we're only annoyed by it because it's the hobby we're passionate about. If you found a vintage vinyl record at a thrift store for $5 but you knew you could sell it online for a couple hundred dollar profit, would you not do it? I'm also big into fly fishing. I once found a fly reel spool at a deep discount in Cabela's, I bought it and sold it for about an $80 profit. I don't think that makes me a bad guy. I recently acquired a bottle of ORVW10 for $80. The idea of selling it for $400-$500 and using all that profit to buy a bunch of other bourbon definitely crossed my mind.  At the end of the day it's all about supply and demand, if there's people out there willing to pay the secondary prices there will always be a secondary market. On the other hand, I just saw a GTS for sale in a store for $400, is that any different?

You make some valid points... Like I said, I tried, i really did, to see it in that light but every new auction or "raffle" or "Anyone interested in..." just rubbed me the wrong way.  I just keep thinking, if you didn't want it, you should have left it for someone who did... 

[Fishin49er]

Don't get me wrong, it annoys me too and I probably would've left the Facebook group as well. This kind of behavior happens in many hobbies, it's just extra annoying when it happens in the hobby you partake in. We can only hope the end purchaser of those bourbons bought them to enjoy them. They were just willing to pay more then me or you would've been willing to pay. 

[kevinbrink]

54 minutes ago, Fishin49er said:

I get what you're saying but I think for most of us we're only annoyed by it because it's the hobby we're passionate about. If you found a vintage vinyl record at a thrift store for $5 but you knew you could sell it online for a couple hundred dollar profit, would you not do it? I'm also big into fly fishing. I once found a fly reel spool at a deep discount in Cabela's, I bought it and sold it for about an $80 profit. I don't think that makes me a bad guy. I recently acquired a bottle of ORVW10 for $80. The idea of selling it for $400-$500 and using all that profit to buy a bunch of other bourbon definitely crossed my mind.  At the end of the day it's all about supply and demand, if there's people out there willing to pay the secondary prices there will always be a secondary market. On the other hand, I just saw a GTS for sale in a store for $400, is that any different?

I would argue that in the cases of the items you are talking about you bought at a lower than fair retail price so it's a little different, I guess some would argue that secondary market prices are the "fair value" but at least to me I feel like that bubble is going to burst. There is of course the additional layer of the illegality of the secondary bourbon market vs you selling items completely legally. I lasted about 5 minutes in a Facebook group, to me it's just a shit show full of people I would rather not interact with.  

[CardsandBourbon]

This is the only group/forum I belong to.  I don't, and have never gotten close enough to anything considered limited enough to flip to even have to decide what I would do.  My first response here and elsewhere has been "I buy bourbon to drink, not to sell.'  The altruistic part of me says that I would, if ever lucky enough to get a Pappy 23, open it and enjoy it.  But then there is that little capitalist sitting on my shoulder saying, "You realize you can sell this for 10 x what you paid for it.

 

What I like most about this forum and the few members I've met is that we first and foremost enjoy buying drinking and sharing our passion with others.  If a member here chooses to sell a bottle for a profit I think that's between them and the bourbon gods.

[Radioyada]

What is this "Facebook" you speak of?

 

Just kidding.  Glad to say I have not had a FB account for going on 4 years now, and am off the social media scene completely.

 

As far as the flippers and resellers, it is my thought that it matters so much because it is in the hobby we here are enjoying.  I just shake my head about the secondary prices, but at same time this goes on with anything that is popular.  Anyone that is willing to part with the cash for those high prices...more power to them.

[ThirstyinOhio]

I am in a lot of the facebook groups and have used it to purchase a lot of bottles, some dusties and some limited releases.  I live in Ohio and we get very little, and sometimes non at all, of the limited releases and sometimes buying it from a flipper is the only choice if I want to add it to my shelf.  If I could get these bottles by simply driving to the local LS or even to a KY LS, then I wouldn't have to go that route, but I'm not ashamed that I do it, even though it is illegal.  But while I may buy online through these groups, I have never sold through those groups, and in fact have never sold any bottle for a profit via any method.  Obviously being a buyer is still contributing to the flipping problem, but even without those flippers, I still don't think you'd see these bottles sitting on the shelves.

Edited January 5, 2018 by ThirstyinOhio

[DCFan]

The hurrumphing here cracks me up. As does the saintly attitude of those who view themselves as bourbon purists and thus are immune from criticism for what they view is their God-given right to do what they want when it comes to bourbon. The “I’m right and you’re wrong because I’m a REAL bourbon lover and you’re not “.

 

But what utterly amazes me is that the connection between hoarding and the secondary market pricing is lost on so many here. Carry on and keep buying in bulk while tsk-tsking those who want to profit because you’ve kept a lot of consumers from being able to find and buy in a LS.

[ThirstyinOhio]

20 minutes ago, DCFan said:

The hurrumphing here cracks me up. As does the saintly attitude of those who view themselves as bourbon purists and thus are immune from criticism for what they view is their God-given right to do what they want when it comes to bourbon. The “I’m right and you’re wrong because I’m a REAL bourbon lover and you’re not “.

 

But what utterly amazes me is that the connection between hoarding and the secondary market pricing is lost on so many here. Carry on and keep buying in bulk while tsk-tsking those who want to profit because you’ve kept a lot of consumers from being able to find and buy in a LS.

Just to poke the bear...here is my couch hoarding up PVW & BTAC...

[JoeTerp]

I've never had a Facebook account and am unlikely to sign up anytime soon.  I do participate on a couple of the reddit groups though (the main bourbon one, dcwhisky, and scotchswap)

[DCFan]

6 minutes ago, ThirstyinOhio said:

Just to poke the bear...here is my couch hoarding up PVW & BTAC...

I’m very envious but didn’t you say maybe in another thread that you did most of your buying before the craze? 

[kevinbrink]

16 minutes ago, DCFan said:

The hurrumphing here cracks me up. As does the saintly attitude of those who view themselves as bourbon purists and thus are immune from criticism for what they view is their God-given right to do what they want when it comes to bourbon. The “I’m right and you’re wrong because I’m a REAL bourbon lover and you’re not “.

 

But what utterly amazes me is that the connection between hoarding and the secondary market pricing is lost on so many here. Carry on and keep buying in bulk while tsk-tsking those who want to profit because you’ve kept a lot of consumers from being able to find and buy in a LS.

I see the connection and while a couple years back I did buy multiples of harder to find stuff here (OWA, ETL specifically) at this point the only stuff I hoard are dusty things I find. I've also been gifting a lot of the stuff I bunkered because I ultimately realize I didn't need it in the first place, I don't think this makes me better than anyone since clearly i was part of the problem at some point.

[CUfan99]

9 minutes ago, ThirstyinOhio said:

Just to poke the bear...here is my couch hoarding up PVW & BTAC...

 

[ThirstyinOhio]

14 minutes ago, DCFan said:

I’m very envious but didn’t you say maybe in another thread that you did most of your buying before the craze? 

Yep, most of those are from 2009-2013.  I haven't gotten crap in the last few years. 

[DCFan]

1 minute ago, ThirstyinOhio said:

Yep, most of those are from 2009-2013.  I haven't gotten crap in the last few years. 

And I’m going to hazard a guess that you hastily arranged those bottles to snap a photo for my benefit? 

[ThirstyinOhio]

37 minutes ago, DCFan said:

And I’m going to hazard a guess that you hastily arranged those bottles to snap a photo for my benefit? 

Of course!

[DCFan]

5 minutes ago, ThirstyinOhio said:

Of course!

While I have you here were you able to get a ORVW 25?

[CB.]

I generally try to avoid fb.

 

However, I do use pappy to barter. They're very limited here, but i just can't bring myself to drink something that has more value as a trade item. If you want it lets make a deal. I'm not going to rake someone over the coals, but if a big offer gets thrown out that's their decision.

 

None of us are entitled to it just because we intend on consumption. Whomever gets it first gets it. I respect peoples opinion, but it is what it is.

[Richnimrod]

Just my own personal feelings here...

I have never bought any Bourbon anywhere other than at a retail outlet.  

Have I had some chances to do so?   Yes; but, I just couldn't get past the idea that I'm helping foster a practice I abhor, only to satisfy my desire to experience some limited availability bottle. 

Do I regret those decisions?    Not really. 

Could I have sold some of the LE's I've been lucky enough to acquire, and made some obscene cheddar?     Actually? ...Probably not.   Since they've all (but one) been opened!   HA!   

Do I regret NOT selling any of the LE's?      Not A Bit!

 

Last thought: If anybody I know wants a taste of ANY of my stash, I'm happy to offer that person a pour... Especially if that chance for the experience convinces that individual not to pursue said brand on the secondary market.   ...My small contribution to countering the idiocy that goes on in that secondary market.     I know.     A drop of nice Bourbon in a lake of nice Bourbon; but it's something.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Richnimrod

[mortre]

What makes America great is that everyone has the right to be who they want to be. So people have the right to profiter off of the LE bottles. Other people have the right to think they are bad people for it, and nobody is actually in the "wrong". We've all agreed to disagree and accept that we don't have to agree for us all to get along.


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[ccleve23]

I belong to a few of the FB groups.  It used to bother me about all the flipping that was going on but really if people are that dumb to pay 5 to 10 times the cost of the whiskey then so be it.  I have bought a couple store picks and dusties here or there but stay away from all the Pappy, BTAC, and Willett craziness.  There are some decent cost plus shipping groups which help people get some nice bottles at a reasonable price.  As being part of a local FB social bourbon group, I was very fortunate to partake in the tasting and selection of a Magnus barrel which was an awesome experience.  So there is good and bad to it all.

[0895]

9 hours ago, DCFan said:

And I’m going to hazard a guess that you hastily arranged those bottles to snap a photo for my benefit? 

 

You don't store your whiskey like that? 

Sitting on the floor, popping bottles, not worrying about falling down after a few slugs from the bottle...heaven.

[beasled]

9 hours ago, mortre said:

What makes America great is that everyone has the right to be who they want to be. So people have the right to profiter off of the LE bottles.


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It's illegal though right? 

[BottledInBond]

2 hours ago, beasled said:

It's illegal though right? 

I’m sorry, and don’t consider this to be a pro-flipping post or specifically attacking you beasled, but the “it’s illegal” argument about what someone does with a bottle is overused and has almost no merit. Seriously, let he who hath no sin cast he first stone. What I mean by that is if you have ever driven over the posted speed limit, don’t try to use this one without extreme hypocrisy. People like to pick and chose when the law is important and pious and when it isn’t. 29 entire states in this country have legalized marijuana now. Marijuana is still technically illegal on a federal level which applies to the whole country. Are the millions of people using marijuana in those 29 states all criminals? They are breaking a federal law. Did you ever consume a drop of alcohol before you were of legal drinking age? Have you ever lit off fireworks that weren’t 100% legal or should have required a permit? Did you ever get in a bar fight? Has anyone here ever been intoxicated in puckish? Have you ever participated in a March Madness gambling pool? Criminals every one of you pirates, just as much of criminals as the dreaded secondary market participant that sold a bottle of Pappy to someone else for a price the two agreed on. 

 

People technically break laws all the time every day. Lots of little things. Some big things. I suggest that unless anyone here wants to suggest that they have never broken even a single law they should not be bringing up the legality of what someone does with a bottle of whiskey. The hypocrisy is too much for me to handle. Oh you drove 66 in a 65 mile per hour zone once? Sorry, criminal, not allowed to complain about someone else breaking a different law. And, end rant.....