Other Groups (facebook, etc...)

[DCFan]

11 hours ago, ccleve23 said:

I belong to a few of the FB groups.  It used to bother me about all the flipping that was going on but really if people are that dumb to pay 5 to 10 times the cost of the whiskey then so be it.  I have bought a couple store picks and dusties here or there but stay away from all the Pappy, BTAC, and Willett craziness.  There are some decent cost plus shipping groups which help people get some nice bottles at a reasonable price.  As being part of a local FB social bourbon group, I was very fortunate to partake in the tasting and selection of a Magnus barrel which was an awesome experience.  So there is good and bad to it all.

Now hold on there pardner. Buying a LE at a hyper inflated price isn't dumb but it's what's expected if someone wants to scratch that itch. There are only so many bottles to go around so the laws of supply and demand kick in. And if someone has the means to buy an oceanfront home, a Lamborghini, a 23 yo PVW, a Bertram sport fishterman, etc, etc, etc then more power to them. That's why I got a powerball ticket for tonight's drawing. 

[kevinbrink]

45 minutes ago, BottledInBond said:

I’m sorry, and don’t consider this to be a pro-flipping post or specifically attacking you beasled, but the “it’s illegal” argument about what someone does with a bottle is overused and has almost no merit. Seriously, let he who hath no sin cast he first stone. What I mean by that is if you have ever driven over the posted speed limit, don’t try to use this one without extreme hypocrisy. People like to pick and chose when the law is important and pious and when it isn’t. 29 entire states in this country have legalized marijuana now. Marijuana is still technically illegal on a federal level which applies to the whole country. Are the millions of people using marijuana in those 29 states all criminals? They are breaking a federal law. Did you ever consume a drop of alcohol before you were of legal drinking age? Have you ever lit off fireworks that weren’t 100% legal or should have required a permit? Did you ever get in a bar fight? Has anyone here ever been intoxicated in puckish? Have you ever participated in a March Madness gambling pool? Criminals every one of you pirates, just as much of criminals as the dreaded secondary market participant that sold a bottle of Pappy to someone else for a price the two agreed on. 

 

People technically break laws all the time every day. Lots of little things. Some big things. I suggest that unless anyone here wants to suggest that they have never broken even a single law they should not be bringing up the legality of what someone does with a bottle of whiskey. The hypocrisy is too much for me to handle. Oh you drove 66 in a 65 mile per hour zone once? Sorry, criminal, not allowed to complain about someone else breaking a different law. And, end rant.....

This doesn't change the accuracy of his statement you quite literally do not have the right, it doesn't stop anyone from making the choice. If I were to be honest I have traded bottles with a couple friends and my brother as well as a couple people I know from SB, in all occasions it was basically for $ value paid in other bottles, I would imagine, though I don't really know that this probably has questionable legality.

[beasled]

No offence taken. I suppose what I meant was that people don't actually have the right to profiteer off of bottles. You can, of course you can, providing you aren't getting caught, like everything else that's vaguely illegal. But there's no 'right' to. Yet, anyway.

 

I'm not pro or anti flipping, anyway. For everyone charging extortionate amounts there's some idiot paying it. I'm anti-idiocy I guess haha!

[BottledInBond]

31 minutes ago, beasled said:

No offence taken. I suppose what I meant was that people don't actually have the right to profiteer off of bottles. You can, of course you can, providing you aren't getting caught, like everything else that's vaguely illegal. But there's no 'right' to. Yet, anyway.

 

I'm not pro or anti flipping, anyway. For everyone charging extortionate amounts there's some idiot paying it. I'm anti-idiocy I guess haha!

The idiot paying for it is what maintains the market for this stuff. If people stopped being willing to pay $500 for a WLW or whatever the secondary market would go away, or eventually prices would creep further towards retail until it wouldn’t be worth people’s time to hunt around for bottles to flip just for profits. Do I think a person is an idiot for paying $2K or more for a bottle of PVW23? Absolutely,  because I don’t even really like that whiskey that much in the first place and would much rather have a bunch of other bottles. Do I think the person on the selling end of that is a scumbag? No. I think he probably has many better things he can do with $2K than drink that overhyped (and over-oaked) bottle in many cases, and he is thinking logically.

 

I just sick of how frequently people make the “illegal” comments. As yet another example, I know that there are many members of this forum that enjoy a cigar, including me. I also know that many of them enjoy smoking Cuban cigars which they got in the USA illegally, including me.  Do we bark at those people as being criminal scum for smoking an illegal cigar? Do we slander them for supporting a communist dictatorship enemy? Nope, we generally treat them as refined gentlemen (or gentlewomen?) who appreciate the finer things in life. But as you say, they shouldn’t have the right to smoke a Cuban cigar (they sort of do depending on how the get them now, but they were totally illegal for 40+ years as a fair caveat). There is just too much hupocrisy when the only thing many people on this site call out as criminal is people reselling a bottle at a profit. 

[jeffrey r]

I just sick of how frequently people make the “illegal” comments. 

People bring that up because it is true, like it or not. Personally, I choose not to buy, trade or sell on the secondary market because of that illegality. I’ll be the one dude who gets caught and gets made an example of. Driving over the speed limit does not inherently present the same risks and consequences.

I happen to be a lawyer. I can’t and won’t risk my law license and livelihood in order to make a few bucks or obtain that bourbon that I can’t obtain otherwise. That’s my own personal choice and situation. I communicate fairly regularly on SB.com with some of the NJ folks—good people. I’m sure I could have some fun trading and what-not, but I’ve never approached any of them for trades, nor offered anything up. I just don’t “go there” for the reason above. But I’d never preach that they or anyone else shouldn’t buy, sell or trade on the secondary market, because it is illegal or for any other reason. Everyone makes their own choices.

That said, the true flipping mentality does fly in the face of what this forum really stands for. I don’t support it. I don’t condone it. It surely keeps some good bourbons from being available to me at decent prices in order to buy and drink. But it is what it is.

[CardsandBourbon]

I've never broken a law, ever.

 

Yours Truly,

 

Jesus

[BottledInBond]

20 minutes ago, jeffrey r said:

 

People bring that up because it is true, like it or not. Personally, I choose not to buy, trade or sell on the secondary market because of that illegality. I’ll be the one dude who gets caught and gets made an example of. Driving over the speed limit does not inherently present the same risks and consequences.

I happen to be a lawyer. I can’t and won’t risk my law license and livelihood in order to make a few bucks or obtain that bourbon that I can’t obtain otherwise. That’s my own personal choice and situation. I communicate fairly regularly on SB.com with some of the NJ folks—good people. I’m sure I could have some fun trading and what-not, but I’ve never approached any of them for trades, nor offered anything up. I just don’t “go there” for the reason above. But I’d never preach that they or anyone else shouldn’t buy, sell or trade on the secondary market, because it is illegal or for any other reason. Everyone makes their own choices.

That said, the true flipping mentality does fly in the face of what this forum really stands for. I don’t support it. I don’t condone it. It surely keeps some good bourbons from being available to me at decent prices in order to buy and drink. But it is what it is.

 

I’m not saying it isn’t illegal. I’m just saying there is great hypocrisy with some people here.  People bend or break the rules and laws all the time but then choose to cry foul when someone else does something they don’t like is what I’m saying. 

[Charlutz]

As the saying goes ‘don’t do the crime if you won’t do the time.’

 

Likening one crime to all crimes is false equivalency. If I speed on the highway it’s my choice and I have to be willing to take the points and pay the fine. It doesn’t mean I cannot be against some other crime. If I was willing to flip bottles I would not try to make the argument that I have the ‘right’ to profiteer in a free country because many people do it without prosecution, especially on a website whose stated mission includes being against it. 

 

I find this thread frustrating. The arguments are talking past each other. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. It is the internet. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Charlutz

[BottledInBond]

14 minutes ago, Charlutz said:

As the saying goes ‘don’t do the crime if you won’t do the time.’

 

Likening one crime to all crimes is false equivalency. If I speed on the highway it’s my choice and I have to be willing to take the points and pay the fine. It doesn’t mean I cannot be against some other crime. If I was willing to flip bottles I would not try to make the argument that I have the ‘right’ to profiteer in a free country because many people do it without prosecution, especially on a website whose stated mission includes being against it. 

 

I find this thread frustrating. The arguments are talking past each other. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. It is the internet. 

Where is the anti trading or secondary market mission statement you are referring to? Just curious

[fishnbowljoe]

20 minutes ago, BottledInBond said:

Where is the anti trading or secondary market mission statement you are referring to? Just curious

Here is a link to the site rules. I believe what Charlutz is referring to is in the fifth paragraph.

 

https://www.straightbourbon.com/forum-rules/

 

Joe

[BottledInBond]

4 minutes ago, fishnbowljoe said:

Here is a link to the site rules. I believe what Charlutz is referring to is in the fifth paragraph.

 

https://www.straightbourbon.com/forum-rules/

 

Joe

Respectfully to all involved, the site rules are not a stated mission statement  against trading or secondary transactions. Paragraph 5 simply states that such transactions can’t be facilitated via the SB site. 

[Charlutz]

1 minute ago, BottledInBond said:

Respectfully to all involved, the site rules are not a stated mission statement  against trading or secondary transactions. Paragraph 5 simply states that such transactions can’t be facilitated via the SB site. 

Respectfully, you’re parsing words. If you don’t believe this site’s mission is for the enjoyment of bourbon and anti-flipping, trading, collecting and related activities, then you haven’t been paying attention. If you prefer that I change my post to ‘unstated mission’ or ‘general purpose’ so that we can move on, I’ll do so. 

[BottledInBond]

49 minutes ago, Charlutz said:

Respectfully, you’re parsing words. If you don’t believe this site’s mission is for the enjoyment of bourbon and anti-flipping, trading, collecting and related activities, then you haven’t been paying attention. If you prefer that I change my post to ‘unstated mission’ or ‘general purpose’ so that we can move on, I’ll do so. 

I think you are pretty out of touch if you think that tons of members of this forum don’t trade either full bottles or samples. I think you are also very unrealistic if you think plenty of the people on this forum don’t periodically buy on the secondary by some means (through people they know or via FB groups, etc.), and also some people on this site have sold bottles before as well. There are comments in many threads that confirm those things, and I know some of those things through my own personal contacts with other members. There is nothing wrong with any of that as long as it isn’t transacted on this website. Maybe there are some people who have never done any sort of trade, but we often talk of sharing pours when members see each other. If I don’t live near another member and we decide to mail each other samples or whole bottles, how is that really so different (as long as not facilitated via SB.com again)? If I get a WLW but don’t get a GTS and know someone in the opposite position, I’ll make that trade if I want to. I also drink the majority of the bottles and share openly with friends and family regularly. I also visit the motherland of KY regularly, stay up to date on happenings of the whiskey world via many mechanisms above and beyond this site, attend tastings, and educate new people I know on the world of whiskey regularly. But no of course I don’t understand the spirit of this forum as well as you do thank you for educating me.

[Nm0369]

I'm not in any Facebook groups and don't have any desire.  I do enjoy the various whiskey venues on Reddit.  Reading reviews, trading samples and occasionally trading bottles has helped me expand my whiskey experience.  Lately I've been able to get some great east coast IPA's in exchange for whiskey samples.  To each their own on the "legal issues".  I've exchanged goods with an attorney and shipped to his office....we were both happy and moved on with our lives.

[jvd99]

2 hours ago, BottledInBond said:

People bend or break the rules and laws all the time but then choose to cry foul when someone else does something they don’t like is what I’m saying. 

Sounds like a few politicians I know - this is also a human flaw applicable to just about everyone

 

2 hours ago, Charlutz said:

Respectfully, you’re parsing words. If you don’t believe this site’s mission is for the enjoyment of bourbon and anti-flipping, trading, collecting and related activities, then you haven’t been paying attention. If you prefer that I change my post to ‘unstated mission’ or ‘general purpose’ so that we can move on, I’ll do so. 

I don't think SB is "anti" anything and the enjoyment of bourbon for some people (and SBers) includes all the things you unilaterally conclude this site is against.  There are clearly members who fall on both sides of the line on flipping, trading, collecting and 'related activities.'  I'm not a huge supporter of flipping, but I also think people can spend their money however they want and if the market sets the price, so be it.  I certainly don't think most members are against trading, it just can't be done directly on SB.  I don't see how SB could possibly be against collecting.  There are "show us your stash" threads going back years for SBers to brag about their collections and numerous member posts about how hunting and collecting are some of the most enjoyable parts of a bourbon hobby.  Simply because some members are vocally in the "I only buy to drink" tribe, that's not reflective of the entire site.  I think you're painting with a broad brush that falsely characterizes SB as a community you wish it to be, not what it really is, which is much more diverse and full of people who fall all over the spectrum when it comes to bourbon related activities.  

Edited January 6, 2018 by jvd99

[NYCBourbon]

I understand frustration on both sides of this issue. One thing I would point out, though, is that a lot of what the secondary market does is provide bourbon to people who otherwise wouldn’t be able to get it. In NYC, The cheapest GTS I’ve seen in the wild was $450, the cheapest WLW $650, etc. Most LE stuff (or at least a lot of it) is above secondary prices here. Sure, if you developed a great relationship with an LS owner you might be able to snag a bottle at retail, but in order to do so you need to shell out some serious cash to become a preferred customer. That’s easier said than done in a city where your competition is people who work on Wall Street and have monthly bourbon budgets more than my monthly rent. I’m a grad student, and although I’m fortunate to receive a comparatively generous fellowship (and have a significant other who has a good job) my bourbon budget is fairly truncated. If I wanted to buy a GTS, I’m sure as hell going to do it for $350 on the secondary rather than $450 or more in a store here. I guess my point is that to argue that the secondary market is uniformly a bad thing, you also need to be comfortable saying that some of us just don’t get to buy or try bourbons people in other states might be able to find with a little luck. Not coming down one way or another on this issue, just food for thought.

[Charlutz]

1 hour ago, BottledInBond said:

I think you are pretty out of touch if you think that tons of members of this forum don’t trade either full bottles or samples. I think you are also very unrealistic if you think plenty of the people on this forum don’t periodically buy on the secondary by some means (through people they know or via FB groups, etc.), and also some people on this site have sold bottles before as well. There are comments in many threads that confirm those things, and I know some of those things through my own personal contacts with other members. There is nothing wrong with any of that as long as it isn’t transacted on this website. Maybe there are some people who have never done any sort of trade, but we often talk of sharing pours when members see each other. If I don’t live near another member and we decide to mail each other samples or whole bottles, how is that really so different (as long as not facilitated via SB.com again)? If I get a WLW but don’t get a GTS and know someone in the opposite position, I’ll make that trade if I want to. I also drink the majority of the bottles and share openly with friends and family regularly. I also visit the motherland of KY regularly, stay up to date on happenings of the whiskey world via many mechanisms above and beyond this site, attend tastings, and educate new people I know on the world of whiskey regularly. But no of course I don’t understand the spirit of this forum as well as you do thank you for educating me.

We are talking past each other again. I agree flipping happens and happens routinely. I’ll also say that because of the numbers of people on this site, I am sure there are flippers among us. I’ve never bought off 2dary but I have consumed whiskey bought off 2dary if that counts. That’s not why I responded and put myself into this thread. 

 

Among your posts, I understood you to say that it’s hypocritical to say that flipping is illegal or bad when everyone is guilty of something and when flipping happens routinely. That was the point to which I was responding. My responses are as follows:

 

1. I disagree with the idea that it’s hypocritical to be willing to commit one crime (e.g. your example of speeding) and critical of another (flipping). This is my opinion and you and I have different opinions. No big deal and we can put this to the side as it’s not worth debating. 

 

2. Your argument is either false equivalency or ‘whataboutism’ — pointing to other examples of “acceptable” lawbreaking doesn’t get us anywhere regarding the initial point - flipping. It just distracts. I disagree with this method of argument. Again, I don’t control how you argue and it’s also not worth discussing. 

 

Now, to the heart of the matter:

 

3. You’re making the flipping argument in the wrong forum. Discussion boards give the members a somewhat open place for discussion. Your points are important to you and other like minded people, but making them here is pointless. The intent of this forum is to support enjoyment of bourbon. Does that include flipping? For the people who buy and drink bourbon on 2dary I am sure it does. But this forum does not support flipping, trading or selling bourbon privately. This is why I got frustrated. Trying to argue this point here will go nowhere because this forum enables free discussion but there are limits and flipping is probably the number one hot button. 

 

TLDR; you may be right or you may be wrong. It just doesn’t matter because the people who run this forum have determined that they don’t want this discussion held here. 

 

Cheers. I have no hostility for you and have enjoyed your posts. We just disagree on this point. I have friends and family with whom I have disagreements. I still like them. You too. Peace. 

[jbutler]

23 hours ago, Charlutz said:

If you don’t believe this site’s mission is for the enjoyment of bourbon and anti-flipping, trading, collecting and related activities, then you haven’t been paying attention. 

This site's "mission" is to create and nurture a functional community based on a simple common interest: bourbon.

 

The reason we don't allow trading/selling in public is simple. Straightbourbon.com has historically been a fairly high profile discussion environment ("target"). If the BATF wanted to make an example of us, it would be a simple matter for them, and I have not the means to defend against them. That would be it; game over. So much simpler to be able to say "I told them we don't do that here."

 

I think the general membership's disdain for flipping is completely separate, and a fairly complex matter; one which I don't have the energy to attempt to describe at this time.

[BottledInBond]

25 minutes ago, Charlutz said:

We are talking past each other again. I agree flipping happens and happens routinely. I’ll also say that because of the numbers of people on this site, I am sure there are flippers among us. I’ve never bought off 2dary but I have consumed whiskey bought off 2dary if that counts. That’s not why I responded and put myself into this thread. 

 

Among your posts, I understood you to say that it’s hypocritical to say that flipping is illegal or bad when everyone is guilty of something and when flipping happens routinely. That was the point to which I was responding. My responses are as follows:

 

1. I disagree with the idea that it’s hypocritical to be willing to commit one crime (e.g. your example of speeding) and critical of another (flipping). This is my opinion and you and I have different opinions. No big deal and we can put this to the side as it’s not worth debating. 

 

2. Your argument is either false equivalency or ‘whataboutism’ — pointing to other examples of “acceptable” lawbreaking doesn’t get us anywhere regarding the initial point - flipping. It just distracts. I disagree with this method of argument. Again, I don’t control how you argue and it’s also not worth discussing. 

 

Now, to the heart of the matter:

 

3. You’re making the flipping argument in the wrong forum. Discussion boards give the members a somewhat open place for discussion. Your points are important to you and other like minded people, but making them here is pointless. The intent of this forum is to support enjoyment of bourbon. Does that include flipping? For the people who buy and drink bourbon on 2dary I am sure it does. But this forum does not support flipping, trading or selling bourbon privately. This is why I got frustrated. Trying to argue this point here will go nowhere because this forum enables free discussion but there are limits and flipping is probably the number one hot button. 

 

TLDR; you may be right or you may be wrong. It just doesn’t matter because the people who run this forum have determined that they don’t want this discussion held here. 

 

Cheers. I have no hostility for you and have enjoyed your posts. We just disagree on this point. I have friends and family with whom I have disagreements. I still like them. You too. Peace. 

I have no hostility either, and I’m actually not making a pro-flipping argument either. I just get sick of people saying something is bad because it’s illegal and the inherent hypocrisy with people choosing that one law is important and another isn’t because of their particular interests at the time, and your view is different and that’s your right too. 

 

Also, I do think every single thing I have said today is well within the rules of the site as I’m not suggesting any buying/trading of bottles via this forum at all. I’ll leave this thread alone from here, more fun things for us to all do. 

[ccleve23]

7 hours ago, DCFan said:

Now hold on there pardner. Buying a LE at a hyper inflated price isn't dumb but it's what's expected if someone wants to scratch that itch. There are only so many bottles to go around so the laws of supply and demand kick in. And if someone has the means to buy an oceanfront home, a Lamborghini, a 23 yo PVW, a Bertram sport fishterman, etc, etc, etc then more power to them. That's why I got a powerball ticket for tonight's drawing. 

My apologies, I bought the winning ticket so better luck next time. 

[fishnbowljoe]

5 minutes ago, ccleve23 said:

My apologies, I bought the winning ticket so better luck next time. 

 

Party at ccleves! 

 

Biba! Joe

[ccleve23]

31 minutes ago, fishnbowljoe said:

 

Party at ccleves! 

 

Biba! Joe

If I win that powerball, you best believe there will be a party. 

[fishnbowljoe]

1 minute ago, ccleve23 said:

If I win that powerball, you best believe there will be a party. 

Good luck brother. 

 

[Dango]

I am pretty new to the bourbon scene. I went nutty in the past 8 months buying up everything that most recommended and went nutty trying to score hard to find stuff. I finally calmed down and when I did I realized a few things. 1.) I was really fortunate getting some hard to find stuff. 2.) I realized I had more than I need for a while. 3.) I have been dialing in my tastes, and realized what I really like is generally always available.  So I was thinking I didn't need to buy any more bourbon for the next year, or I could sell some and share will people less lucky than me. So that's what I did. I sold like 6 bottles of good stuff. However I sold to another bourbon lover, and I sold at cost. I was assured they were that persons enjoyment. I think bourbon should be shared and enjoyed without paying ridiculous prices for it.

I understand people wanting to flip stuff for profit, its the american way. I don't understand people who pay the extravagant prices. I guess there are people with LOTS of discretionary money to burn.

[mortre]

I'm not very versed in the legalities of secondary market as it doesn't interest me. Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that it was only illegal to sell without a license, so I don't think the buyer is actually breaking the law. Also, sharing or trading wouldn't be illegal unless money was involved. After all, if it was then it would also be illegal to bring a bottle to share at your buddies bbq.

Wouldn't the seller/flipper be able to get a license anyway? I'm wanting to say the license in WA is a yearly fee of something like $150, so that doesn't seem so burdensome for someone flipping a $90 bottle for $500 etc.

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