I.W. Harper 15

[Marekv8]

Another Diageo release in IWH15 age range worth considering is the 106 proof "Hand Selected Barrel" George Dickel 14. Getting hard to find out there, but a nice alternative.

 

[kevinbrink]

7 minutes ago, lcpfratn said:

Your past praise of Barterhouse is what actually got me to buy my first bottle, and I have since bunkered a few more. I do like it and think it is fairly priced given its age. I just wish I could find it for the prices you reference, because it is always around $100, and sometimes a bit more in my area. Having said that, I think I do like the current release of Michter's 10 better than Barterhouse, but it does cost a bit more. I actually think Michter's has more complexity of flavor, while the extensive filtration of Barterhouse has rendered it less complex, but very easy drinking. I have not done a SBS comparison, so maybe I need to do that to convince myself that my position on preference holds up.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

All this talk of filtration reminded me of this Blog post by Chuck Cowdery:

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2015/01/filtration-way-to-improve-whiskey-or.html

 

I think the idea of complexity in taste is complicated and subjective and probably affected by the individual's taste buds. 

[EarthQuake]

1 hour ago, lcpfratn said:

Your past praise of Barterhouse is what actually got me to buy my first bottle, and I have since bunkered a few more. I do like it and think it is fairly priced given its age. I just wish I could find it for the prices you reference, because it is always around $100, and sometimes a bit more in my area. Having said that, I think I do like the current release of Michter's 10 better than Barterhouse, but it does cost a bit more. I actually think Michter's has more complexity of flavor, while the extensive filtration of Barterhouse has rendered it less complex, but very easy drinking. I have not done a SBS comparison, so maybe I need to do that to convince myself that my position on preference holds up.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's good to hear, I've made one convert! I would be interested to hear what you think with a blind SBS. I'm probably overly harsh on the M10, I actually liked it (and the NAS Michter's, it's my wife's favorite bourbon actually), I just wish it was a bit cheaper/easier to find. At $80ish I would probably get a bottle.

 

Binny's out of Chicago has Barterhouse for $89 pretty consistently, unfortunately I don't think they ship it. It doesn't show up here in IA very often (I think I've only seen 2 or 3 bottles over the last 3 years), but it's $85 or 89 when it does show up. I know a lot of shops online have it listed for $120+, which is rough.

[EarthQuake]

57 minutes ago, Marekv8 said:

Another Diageo release in IWH15 age range worth considering is the 106 proof "Hand Selected Barrel" George Dickel 14. Getting hard to find out there, but a nice alternative.

 

Yeah, it's worth seeking out Knob Creek Single Barrel store picks too, 12, 13, and 14 year old barrels can occasionally be found with some digging online, and usually in the $40-50 range to boot.

[berto]

3 hours ago, EarthQuake said:

Maybe if one were able to buy PVW15/20/etc year for what they sold for 15 years ago, IW15, Barterhouse, etc would be overpriced, but that's not the reality we live in today. There are literally no other options in the 15-20 year range at this price level, so it's difficult to understand how anyone could come to the conclusion that IW15 is $30 whiskey - compared to what exactly?

 

 

I.W. Harper 15 isn't any better than Elijah Craig or Eagle Rare or McKenna 10 yr.  Those are $30 bottles.  If you want to quibble over the difference in age being meaningful have at it, but I much prefer any of those three bottles to the Harper in the pretty package. 

 

I've bought most of the OB releases.  Barterhouse is the only one I would think about buying again but I don't think it's worth the price given the availability  of things I like much better for the same price or cheaper.  The OB line is perfect to introduce newer drinkers to hyper aged juice and show them that an increase in age and price doesn't always mean it's better bourbon.

[BigSkyDrams]

10 hours ago, Marekv8 said:

Another Diageo release in IWH15 age range worth considering is the 106 proof "Hand Selected Barrel" George Dickel 14. Getting hard to find out there, but a nice alternative.

 

I’m going to keep an eye out for this, thanks!

 

There are very few stores around me who have any single barrel picks. Haven’t seen any of the KC store picks. But that will definitely be on my radar too. 

 

The purpose of my asking is I would like to get something in my collection that will be representative of an emphasized aged/oaky character to better educate my palate. These suggestions have generally been very helpful. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by BigSkyDrams

[PaulO]

If you can find some of the discontinued EC with the big red 12; that stuff could be very strong on the oak.

[kevinbrink]

21 hours ago, Marekv8 said:

Another Diageo release in IWH15 age range worth considering is the 106 proof "Hand Selected Barrel" George Dickel 14. Getting hard to find out there, but a nice alternative.

 

I don't think I've seen a 14 yr pick in 4 or 5 years, are these still around in other places?

[flahute]

3 hours ago, kevinbrink said:

I don't think I've seen a 14 yr pick in 4 or 5 years, are these still around in other places?

4-5 years ago is the timeline I remember for these as well.

[Marekv8]

3 hours ago, kevinbrink said:

I don't think I've seen a 14 yr pick in 4 or 5 years, are these still around in other places?

I picked up that bottle a couple of weeks ago. The age statement is so subtle on the PDP, that these often get passed over as an overpriced 9yr or even the GD Barrel Select. There's a giant "14" on the top-- but once on the shelf, it disappears.

[HoustonNit]

The bottle is pretty.  It suffers the typical Diageo flaw of low proof and over filtration making it a perfectly drinkable but utterly uninspiring and forgettable pour.  It's maybe $30 juice inside a $50 container.    

Bingo, this is an excellent answer. I tend to enjoy a good EC store pick or a good barrel of HMcK BiB over this. All three are similar but IW Harper 15 is the least interesting. Thanks to the info on SB we can avoid products like this.

[smokinjoe]

On 1/25/2018 at 4:16 PM, berto said:

The bottle is pretty.  It suffers the typical Diageo flaw of low proof and over filtration making it a perfectly drinkable but utterly uninspiring and forgettable pour.  It's maybe $30 juice inside a $50 container.    

I have read many times that the OB’s are “over filtered”, even to the degree that the whiskey was undrinkable prior to this covert process.  How these people knew what it tasted like before, I’ve asked and wondered without response.  And, I have asked many times does anyone have any data, proof, personal observation of any over filtration process that they can submit to support the claim.  “I can taste it”, doesn’t count.  Is there a documented and legit source for this specific claim?  I’m not saying it’s not done, but I’d like some proof.  

Edited January 27, 2018 by smokinjoe

[flahute]

1 hour ago, smokinjoe said:

I have read many times that the OB’s are “over filtered”, even to the degree that the whiskey was undtinkable prior to this covert process.  How these people knew what it tasted like before, I’ve asked and wondered without response.  And, I have asked many times does anyone have any data, proof, personal observation of any over filtration process that they can submit to support the claim.  “I can taste it”, doesn’t count.  Is there a documented and legit source for this specific claim?  I’m not saying it’s not done, but I’d like some proof.  

Though I can't speak to OB specifically, I do know that Michter's is very open about their filtration techniques. Willie Pratt is quite proud of it and has spoken about it on multiple occasions.

The extra aged Michter's products I've tried have a very distinctive flavor. The only other place I've tasted this same flavor is in the OB products and the aged Jefferson's products.

This flavor is not present in any of the old Willetts, Turkeys, 4R's, Saz18, ER17, VW rye, EC18 and 21, etc. that I've had. Of those I mentioned that have an oak influence, it's all the same flavor range - tannins to sawdust depending on the severity. A very different flavor than what you get from the alleged "filtered" bourbons. In those, the tannic/wood/sawdust flavor is not present.

 

These are my observations.

[smokinjoe]

16 minutes ago, flahute said:

Though I can't speak to OB specifically, I do know that Michter's is very open about their filtration techniques. Willie Pratt is quite proud of it and has spoken about it on multiple occasions.

The extra aged Michter's products I've tried have a very distinctive flavor. The only other place I've tasted this same flavor is in the OB products and the aged Jefferson's products.

This flavor is not present in any of the old Willetts, Turkeys, 4R's, Saz18, ER17, VW rye, EC18 and 21, etc. that I've had. Of those I mentioned that have an oak influence, it's all the same flavor range - tannins to sawdust depending on the severity. A very different flavor than what you get from the alleged "filtered" bourbons. In those, the tannic/wood/sawdust flavor is not present.

 

These are my observations.

Thanks, my bro.  I should have been more specific in my “personal observation” part. I intended it to mean personally observing the whiskey going through the over filtering, rather than observing potential flavor differences on ones own palate.  

 

 

[flahute]

5 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

Thanks, my bro.  I should have been more specific in my “personal observation” part. I intended it to mean personally observing the whiskey going through the over filtering, rather than observing potential flavor differences on ones own palate.  

 

 

Ah yes, got it.

Apart from Michter's openly talking about it, I'm not aware of any other proof regarding OB.

I'm going to look for it though!

[smokinjoe]

10 minutes ago, flahute said:

Ah yes, got it.

Apart from Michter's openly talking about it, I'm not aware of any other proof regarding OB.

I'm going to look for it though!

Ask Howard.  He must have tangible proof.

Edited January 27, 2018 by smokinjoe

[BigSkyDrams]

So I visited the LS this weekend for some more research (and to restock a HM10 sipper) and they have both the Barterhouse and Forged Oak. Bartehouse is about the same price as the IWH 15 and the Forged Oak is about $65. I’m leaning towards the Barterhouse due to the advanced age, but might have to circle back on the FO at a later date.

 

I checked on the Dickel as well,  it didn’t see any age statement, so I think I was looking at a barrel select, not hand selected, George Dickel. Even so, might have to grab that as well as it had pretty good reviews.

[berto]

On 1/27/2018 at 12:05 PM, smokinjoe said:

I have read many times that the OB’s are “over filtered”, even to the degree that the whiskey was undrinkable prior to this covert process.  How these people knew what it tasted like before, I’ve asked and wondered without response.  And, I have asked many times does anyone have any data, proof, personal observation of any over filtration process that they can submit to support the claim.  “I can taste it”, doesn’t count.  Is there a documented and legit source for this specific claim?  I’m not saying it’s not done, but I’d like some proof.  

You raise an excellent point.  I don't know what filtration is or isn't done for the OB line.  For me everything is muted and lacking something in a way that can't be explained just by a lower proof than I'd prefer.  I assume it has to be some kind of filtration, not done nefariously, but something done on purpose and likely something done to make these older barrels palatable.  Given that it's Diageo at the controls and the nonsense their marketing concocted around the line I'm not about to assume best intentions on their part.  If there is no extra filtration then the barrels they "found" are just old, boring, and kind of ass.  Filtration or not the OB line is lackluster.        

[EarthQuake]

I think if you go into any of the OB products expecting a big, brash bourbon that will punch you in the taste buds, you're going to be disappointed. That's not what the line (or IWH) is about. It's the exact opposite of that, it's subtle, the rough edges are very well worn down, but there is complexity there if you're willing to take the time to get properly aquatinted with it. Something like Barterhouse has a lot in common with well aged Cognac or Armagnac in that regard. The reason I love it is precisely because it's so different than say, Stagg Jr or ECBP or any number of more traditional bourbons in the 7-10 year range.

 

Now, the marketing thing again. Let's be honest, most whiskey companies have some BS marketing story for their product, most simply made the pitch a long time ago so we don't mind. HH/Elijah Craig use a dubious tale about the original EC inventing bourbon (there is little proof to suggest that he did). Do I even need to list the countless product lines with some old dead guy on the bottle that have no association with their product?

 

On the flip side, some of OB's products have genuinely fit the marketing tale, like the 22 year SW juice they used for Lost Prophet, that was of limited stock, and probably never would have been bottled (or would have been mixed into something where you wouldn't have been able to appreciate it for what it was) had Diageo not introduced the OB line. Sure, Barterhouse is anything but limited or long lost, there seems to be a good deal of it. But honestly, are we really going to start complaining that there is too much reasonably priced 20 year old bourbon on the market?

 

In the age of disappearing age statements, complete fabrications (Temptleton et al), buyouts resulting in product lines being nothing like what they used to be, at least Diageo's OB line puts genuinely unique products on the market, even if they aren't to everyone's taste. Additionally, on a very basic level the OB story is correct, or at least within reason - someone found these barrels and when there is no more of them, they are gone - this is true for essentially all whiskey though, so it's not that remarkable of a claim, and it's also not a particularly absurd one. The majority of premium bourbon lines require someone to search through a generally massive industrial stock to find the appropriate barrels. No, they didn't find the barrels in someone's grandpa's basement, but they never claimed to have done so either.

 

Let's break down the actual wording of OB's story:

 

"The Orphan Barrel Whiskey Co. was started to share barrels of delicious and rare whiskey, hidden away and nearly forgotten in the back of rickhouses and distilleries."

 

Yes, this is careful worded to make it seem more mysterious and interesting than sorting through Diageo's massive stock, but what is so dishonest about this? When you're a company as big as Diageo, you're probably surprised by what you actually have aging in warehouses quite frequently. My wife is a registrar for a university art museum, this means she keeps track of and should know where all the art is. It is not uncommon for her to find artwork that her predecessors did not properly catalog, and we're talking about a much smaller scale here.

 

Now, I'm not saying every (or even any, I don't have first hand knowledge) product they put out is found by accident, but I don't think it's too far fetched to suggest that some of their releases could have been tucked away without a specific use, only to be "found" and tasted years later before someone realized the potential for a limited release product in todays market. It's important to keep in mind that the market for this sort of stuff just wasn't there 20 years ago, so it's unlikely these barrels were put aside with some specific plan of devious intent.

 

"Stories of these lost whiskeys have become the stuff of legend.Our goal is to bottle these rare, small offerings for the world to try and for you to add to your whiskey collection. "

 

There is certainly some carnival barker in this bit, but honestly, some of the juice they've bottled is legendary. If Pappy or A.H Hirsch had put out the 22 year SW juice, everyone would be tripping over each other to burn crazy money on a bottle of this stuff on the secondary (as it is, people pay quite a lot for it and some of the other more limited releases on the secondary).

 

"Every Orphan Barrel whiskey is hand bottled in Tullahoma, Tennessee, to ensure that these rare whiskeys are treated with the care they deserve – because some of them will only be available once."

 

I stuggle to find anything even remotely objectionable about this.

 

"And once they're gone, they're gone forever."

 

Yes, once a barrel of whiskey has been bottled and drank it's gone forever. Again, they're trying to drum up a larger than life image here, but that's what a competent marketing department would try to do for any product.

 

Now, a lot of people would like to paint Diageo with the same brush that should be reserved for the likes of Templeton, who A. made up a complete lie about a special recipe favored by Al Capone, B. claimed to have actually distilled the product in Iowa, C. flavored the product with additives, and D. had to be sued before they stopped with the nonsense. In contrast, Diageo has been transparent about where each bottling was distilled and even the mash bills are known for most (or all?) of their releases.

 

The Gifted Horse story is a bit silly, but certain no worse than Wild Turkey's Forgiven line.

 

At the end of the day, the only thing Diageo is guilty of is trying to make their product sound desirable, and if that is a crime, every producer in the industry is guilty.

Edited January 30, 2018 by EarthQuake

[Paddy]

Can we get on topic?

[EarthQuake]

8 hours ago, BigSkyDrams said:

So I visited the LS this weekend for some more research (and to restock a HM10 sipper) and they have both the Barterhouse and Forged Oak. Bartehouse is about the same price as the IWH 15 and the Forged Oak is about $65. I’m leaning towards the Barterhouse due to the advanced age, but might have to circle back on the FO at a later date.

 

I checked on the Dickel as well,  it didn’t see any age statement, so I think I was looking at a barrel select, not hand selected, George Dickel. Even so, might have to grab that as well as it had pretty good reviews.

I've got a bottle of Forged Oak that I paid about $65 for, assuming you can get Barterhouse for $80 I would generally go that route. It's not that Forged Oak is bad or anything, it's just a pretty similar price point and I prefer Barterhouse personally, so the FO has sat on the shelf while I've finished a couple bottles of Barterhouse. Of course, there's only one way to find out which you like better, get both!  I find Forged Oak to be a little more sweet, a little more rough, while Barterhouse is a bit more dry, and Rhetoric 23 is even drier (probably the most dry bourbon I've had), otherwise very similar flavor profile.

 

Another couple that haven't been mentioned, but are generally not hard to find and fit into a similar flavor family as Barterhouse, EC 18, etc, is Wild Turkey 17 (and presumable decades, though I haven't tried it). Like the EC 18, these tend to be a bit more spendy than Barterhouse though.

Edited January 30, 2018 by EarthQuake

[BigSkyDrams]

I also just learned this place got a store select 13 year old Eagle Rare, so that’s jumped to the front of my list to pick up... then Barterhouse, then FO... then maybe the IWH15 if I still have any money. 

[EarthQuake]

17 minutes ago, BigSkyDrams said:

I also just learned this place got a store select 13 year old Eagle Rare, so that’s jumped to the front of my list to pick up... then Barterhouse, then FO... then maybe the IWH15 if I still have any money. 

I've had a couple ER10 store picks, which have been really good, better than the standard ER10 which is my benchmark for all things bourbon. The ER store picks tend to be absurdly good values, I'm curious to know what the 13 year tastes like!

[BigSkyDrams]

1 hour ago, EarthQuake said:

I've had a couple ER10 store picks, which have been really good, better than the standard ER10 which is my benchmark for all things bourbon. The ER store picks tend to be absurdly good values, I'm curious to know what the 13 year tastes like!

I’ll report back after cracking one this weekend!

[tanstaafl2]

18 hours ago, Paddy said:

Can we get on topic?

Apparently the answer to your question is no...