Anyone visit Justins' House of Bourbon?

[ThirstyinOhio]

I'm headed to Lexington next week and was curious if a stop in the new vintage liquor shop, Justins' House of Bourbon, was worth it or not.  I'm not expecting to find any deals in that place, but it might be cool to see some really old bottles.  Their website is lacking to say the least... http://www.thehouseofbourbon.com/

 

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by ThirstyinOhio

[BigTS]

The website is definitely all tease! I would like to browse their inventory though.

[CardsandBourbon]

My guess is it would be like going to the Ferrari dealership.  Lots of things to drool over but that's about all.

[$helby]

Unfortunately I was not aware of it while in Lexington last week.  I think it would have been cool to window shop  and possibly buy an old dusty just to add to my bunker.   I’m quite sure the selection is insane and covering a wide variation in price points.   I for one hope they are successful.  

[ThirstyinOhio]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 10:38 PM, $helby said:

Unfortunately I was not aware of it while in Lexington last week.  I think it would have been cool to window shop  and possibly buy an old dusty just to add to my bunker.   I’m quite sure the selection is insane and covering a wide variation in price points.   I for one hope they are successful.  

I hope they are successful as well as it could lead to more vintage liquor stores and competition is good for the consumer.  It will be an interesting business model as I just don't know how many people are in the market and how many bottles do they need to sell just to keep the lights on.  I think I'll try to stop in on Thursday.  If I do, I'll report back on what I find.

Edited March 12, 2018 by ThirstyinOhio

[jvd99]

I wish these guys well, but don't let the unicorns blind anyone from doing due diligence checking for fakes.  This new law will bring old duties out of a lot of bunkers, but it'll also present a new, close to home, market for the counterfeiters.  There's like 30 empty Van Winkle bottles on e-bay right now and I'm sure not all of them are being made into lamps or some other craft project.  

[Clueby]

I'm not discounting the danger of fakes but I bet a large portion of empties are bought so they can put something else in there and display it to look "cool".

[jvd99]

1 hour ago, Clueby said:

I'm not discounting the danger of fakes but I bet a large portion of empties are bought so they can put something else in there and display it to look "cool".

I agree, but fakes are out there and are guaranteed to make it into the new KY vintage spirits market.  I don’t want to hijack this thread, so I’ll shut up about it.  The issue of counterfeits has been vigorously lititigated in several other threads on SB if anyone is interested

[Bob_Loblaw]

23 hours ago, ThirstyinOhio said:

I hope they are successful as well as it could lead to more vintage liquor stores and competition is good for the consumer.  It will be an interesting business model as I just don't know how many people are in the market and how many bottles do they need to sell just to keep the lights on.  I think I'll try to stop in on Thursday.  If I do, I'll report back on what I find.

 

My initial gut reaction says this is actually very very bad for bourbon drinkers like those on SB.  Super rare dusty's aside I would think a good portion of sales will also be the allocated regular production stuff.  Justins' will likely have a standing buy list and will scoop up as many of things like W12 or ETL or RHF  as they can.  Very attractive for small time flippers who will no longer have to deal with Craigslist Ads or whatnot.  This will be a one stop shop, instant cash for the flipper and 100% legal.  Good for Justins', good for flippers, bad for us.  Also, the statute is a bit deceiving as it purports to deal with Vintage spirits, but then take a look at the definition below that I pulled from a google search on the statute.  Pretty broad. 

 

"Vintage distilled spirit" means a package or packages of distilled spirits that: 10 (a) Are in their original manufacturer's unopened container; 11 (b) Are not owned by a distillery; and 12 (c) Are not otherwise available for purchase from a licensed wholesaler within 13 the Commonwealth.

 

2 hours ago, jvd99 said:

I agree, but fakes are out there and are guaranteed to make it into the new KY vintage spirits market.  I don’t want to hijack this thread, so I’ll shut up about it.  The issue of counterfeits has been vigorously lititigated in several other threads on SB if anyone is interested

 

Obviously, I have no way of knowing for certain, but I would think that the risk of fakes will be very low.  Having the license to sell should also come with the burden of providing an warranty (implied if not express) as to the authenticity of the vintage spirits sold.  My guess is that Justins' will be very meticulous about not purchasing questionable bottles and in the event they do the buyer will be made whole and, if not, will have legal recourse.

 

Just my thoughts, time will tell though!  

 

[jvd99]

The first registered/reported transactions were allocated recent releases - not quite what most people consider ‘vintage.”  The definition is extremely ambiguous and could be interpreted to includ such things as BTAC/PVW, releases with a batch number, and single barrels - anything could arguably fit the definition of being no longer available once it’s bottled and a reasonable time elapses so it could be considered no longer available in the commonwealth.  It could also raise a possibility of products not being distributed to KY so a secondary market can be established immediately which could be used as a basis for raising prices nationwide. I think places like Justin’s will push the envelope on transacting recent and/or currently available, yet flippable bottles, until the State of KY enforces the law under an official interpretation (still unknown) of the statututory language or the legislature narrows the definition of vintage spirit to fit a more traditional definition, like being being bottled prior to a specific date, like 1990 or 2000. 

 

3 hours ago, Bob_Loblaw said:

Obviously, I have no way of knowing for certain, but I would think that the risk of fakes will be very low.  Having the license to sell should also come with the burden of providing an warranty (implied if not express) as to the authenticity of the vintage spirits sold.  My guess is that Justins' will be very meticulous about not purchasing questionable bottles and in the event they do the buyer will be made whole and, if not, will have legal recourse.  

 

Counterfeits have made it past auction houses for as long as auction houses have been operating.  I doubt the two dudes who started Justin’s are the be all end all of fakery slueths.  An experienced counterfeiter is probably good enough to know his handiwork won’t be easily detected (really all he has to do is fake the seal after getting a genuine bottle off eBay). Google is full of stories about wine/spirits counterfeiters operating for years without detection

[flahute]

7 hours ago, Bob_Loblaw said:

 

My initial gut reaction says this is actually very very bad for bourbon drinkers like those on SB.  Super rare dusty's aside I would think a good portion of sales will also be the allocated regular production stuff.  Justins' will likely have a standing buy list and will scoop up as many of things like W12 or ETL or RHF  as they can.  Very attractive for small time flippers who will no longer have to deal with Craigslist Ads or whatnot.  This will be a one stop shop, instant cash for the flipper and 100% legal.  Good for Justins', good for flippers, bad for us.  Also, the statute is a bit deceiving as it purports to deal with Vintage spirits, but then take a look at the definition below that I pulled from a google search on the statute.  Pretty broad. 

 

"Vintage distilled spirit" means a package or packages of distilled spirits that: 10 (a) Are in their original manufacturer's unopened container; 11 (b) Are not owned by a distillery; and 12 (c) Are not otherwise available for purchase from a licensed wholesaler within 13 the Commonwealth.

 

 

Obviously, I have no way of knowing for certain, but I would think that the risk of fakes will be very low.  Having the license to sell should also come with the burden of providing an warranty (implied if not express) as to the authenticity of the vintage spirits sold.  My guess is that Justins' will be very meticulous about not purchasing questionable bottles and in the event they do the buyer will be made whole and, if not, will have legal recourse.

 

Just my thoughts, time will tell though!  

 

Limiteds and allocateds are already unicorns in KY so this doesn’t really change anything for the locals. I’m not sure what Justin’s pricing structure is going to look like but they need to make a profit so the people who sell to them are not going to get full secondary value. I’m not sure this really changes much. 

[jvd99]

1 hour ago, flahute said:

Limiteds and allocateds are already unicorns in KY so this doesn’t really change anything for the locals. I’m not sure what Justin’s pricing structure is going to look like but they need to make a profit so the people who sell to them are not going to get full secondary value. I’m not sure this really changes much. 

It just makes it legal 

 

It will be interesting to see how much places like Justin's will be willing to pay for unicorn bottles, especially when the seller can get an accurate value from Bottle Blue Book and the Euro auction houses.  I have a feeling bottles will only fetch around 50% or maybe 60% of their secondary value so the re-seller can make a profit.  

 

I also wonder if they will branch out into all distilled spirits like scotch, rum, Irish, cognac etc.

[ThirstyinOhio]

I was able to visit the store on Friday and I must say it is a nice atmosphere.  Having said that, the prices on the vintage bottles were even higher than I had expected, for example, they had E.H. Taylor Tornado for $2,000.  I will say that they had a lot of true unicorn bottles and if someone far wealthier than I walks in with a money is no option attitude they could leave with some awesome bottles.  While I was there chatting with the staff, he told me I was the first guy to come in during the last few hours however two other guys came in shortly after me but they were only looking for some cheap every day stuff that they didn't have.  I think they will have a tough go of it, but if they can establish themselves as the pre-eminent vintage whiskey shop I could see them doing very well if they can build a small but affluent client list.  In summary, its worth a stop just to drool over their bottles but don't expect to find pricing anywhere inline with other secondary market places. 

[jvd99]

That’s a ridiculous price for Tornado, if they’re paying 50% of that, I’ve got 2 bottles to sell.  Seriously though, who’s really going to travel to KY and drop that kind of coin on one, let alone multiple bottles.  If they’re getting 2-3 visitors a day, with 2-3 of those being purely curiosity seekers and not serious buyers, how are they going to stay in business?  At best, this is an online business, but with the carriers, FedEx/ups, cracking down, not sure even that’s viable.  These guys may be too early to market

[Bob_Loblaw]

3 hours ago, ThirstyinOhio said:

I was able to visit the store on Friday and I must say it is a nice atmosphere. 

Oh cool, I was waiting for someone to post that they visited.  Any other prices that you can recall and/or are willing to share? 

[JoeTerp]

As someone who doesn't follow secondary pricing at all, I'm just curious is this far above what you would be able to pay on secondary.  In the instances where I've seen secondary pricing mentioned it seems that retail shops that are legally selling some limited bottles almost always seem to be priced well above secondary.

[Adam777]

12 hours ago, JoeTerp said:

As someone who doesn't follow secondary pricing at all, I'm just curious is this far above what you would be able to pay on secondary.  In the instances where I've seen secondary pricing mentioned it seems that retail shops that are legally selling some limited bottles almost always seem to be priced well above secondary.

Check out bottle spot or bourbon exchange regarding secondary pricing. It made me sick to my stomach however there are probably legitimate bourbon drinkers on there, but mostly seems like places for flippers. Also on the topic “bourbon you passed up” members have shared pics of places selling bourbon secondary pricing and even higher. There may be some members that are rich if you go by secondary! Jvd99 has $2,000 in his EHT tornado apparently!

[ThirstyinOhio]

17 hours ago, Bob_Loblaw said:

Oh cool, I was waiting for someone to post that they visited.  Any other prices that you can recall and/or are willing to share? 

They don't have the bottles marked with price so you have to ask and I didn't go through all of them.  I asked about the Tornado and a Willett 24/110 rye that I was truly interested in.  The Willett 24/110 was $11,000....which is 3-4x what I've seen it go for online.  I was willing to buy it if it was under 3k since it was my birthday, but they made it easy to keep my money for another day. 

[jvd99]

I’ve got a bottle of Jack I’m selling for $3,000 but that doesn’t mean anyone’s gonna buy it 

2 hours ago, Adam777 said:

! Jvd99 has $2,000 in his EHT tornado apparently!

I’ve got about $140 in those two Tornados because that’s what I paid for them.  

[ThirstyinOhio]

17 minutes ago, jvd99 said:

I’ve got a bottle of Jack I’m selling for $3,000 but that doesn’t mean anyone’s gonna buy it 

I’ve got about $140 in those two Tornados because that’s what I paid for them.  

That's about what I have in my two bottles, unfortunately I only have about 2 ounces left in one of them and I'm looking to replace it.  I don't know how much love the Tornado gets, but I think its a fantastic pour.