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flahute

Bourbon year end 2018 - State of the State.

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Vosgar
1 hour ago, smokinjoe said:

The High Rye is about as close to dusty Taylor as can be found.

Joe - you sonofabitch! Being a HUGE fan of dusty Old Taylor, now I've got to try to find a bottle of this High Rye. Standard 1792 hasn't been something I've ever really cared for so I never even contemplated buying any of their other expressions. Just the thought of that dusty OT deep caramel nose and taste has me drooling :P

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mosugoji64
4 hours ago, mbroo5880i said:

Great write up, Steve!  I agree BT is the 800-lb gorilla with LEs and WT hit it out of the park this year.  I also agree with the perspective on FR's decline.  Just curious on your and others' thoughts on the other major Sazerac bourbon brand, 1792.  While the offering is somewhat one-dimensional, they are working to provide some variation.  I find the increase proof of SiB and FP to be a step up from the standard bottle.  I have not had the opportunity to try the High Rye, Sweet Wheat, Port Finished, or BIB.  However, it seems to me that even these seemingly simple variations are more than some brands are willing to venture into.

 

Thanks for bringing up 1792! I was never a fan of 1792 in the past as I always thought VOB was much better (and cheaper) but that changed when they started introducing the line extensions. To me, it seems they've hit their stride and nailed down the more-elegant-Barton flavor they were aiming for all along. The one (surprising) exception, for me, has been Sweet Wheat. As a wheater fan, I grabbed a bottle of the first release as soon as possible but just didn't love it. The nose was fantastic but the palate was bitter to me. I'll give it another try IF I can manage to find another.

 

3 hours ago, The Black Tot said:

The discovery this year that I enjoy the profile of JBB has been a real budgetary joy. I'd have bunkered a good stash of the age stated if I'd have known. And I'd have bought that Signature 12yr if I had watched for the closeouts (because at $40 that wasn't a great marketing plan without bumping the proof above 86. Would have done very well at 100 or above, I reckon).

 

 

A few months ago, I discovered that a couple of stores nearby had stashes of 8yr JBB. The last bottle I had, several years ago, was overloaded with yeasty flavor and got used as a mixer. I bought one of the age-stated bottles purely for novelty but upon tasting, I went back and bought the rest! Perhaps it's my taste that has changed but that is some very tasty whiskey, enough so that I bought a small NAS bottle for comparison. While the 8yr is noticeably more mature, the NAS bottle was still very good. Good enough that I'd happily grab a bottle of that to share with friends or contribute to the booze table at a party.

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jeffrey r
14 hours ago, mosugoji64 said:

A few months ago, I discovered that a couple of stores nearby had stashes of 8yr JBB. The last bottle I had, several years ago, was overloaded with yeasty flavor and got used as a mixer. I bought one of the age-stated bottles purely for novelty but upon tasting, I went back and bought the rest! Perhaps it's my taste that has changed but that is some very tasty whiskey, enough so that I bought a small NAS bottle for comparison. While the 8yr is noticeably more mature, the NAS bottle was still very good. Good enough that I'd happily grab a bottle of that to share with friends or contribute to the booze table at a party.

I resemble that remark...  It’s not my favorite or anything like that, but just like I did with FC 6 Yr, KC 9 Yr, and EC 12 Yr amongst others when they were going away, I stocked up on JBB 8 Yr when it was going away.  NAS just never measures up to me.

 

 

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Edited by jeffrey r
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HoustonNit

Flathute nicely done and some great additional posts from others. Not really much to disagree with and this not really much to add to this.

The idea of EW at barrel proof or at least above 86 proof and 10+ years is appealing. Pretty interesting how it seems a lot of people are basically done with BT products until supply catches up. I think BT products are somewhat more available here in Texas but I find them to be mostly kind of boring so other than standard BT and non WSR Weller I mostly avoid it.

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DeepCover

Great topic! It’s nice to read consolidated comments on various distilleries like this, and where we see their strengths and weaknesses.

 

On the topic of Maker’s Mark (a prime example of a distiller that’s missing the boat), I too continue to be disappointed with them. Now I’m sure they’d tell you, “Whatever do you mean? We now have the 46, Cask Strength, Private Select (with numerous stave combinations), and we recently came out with a duty free 101 proof!”. And I would say, “So what. Why don’t you give everyone what they’ve been asking for? Something that’s not barely old enough to go to First Grade. How about some age and proof??”

 

On the topic of 4R (in addition to the previous comments), I don’t understand why they bottle all their PS offerings in the same bottle and front label style as the SiB offering. They have 10 recipes. Why not celebrate that and stop commoditizing their offerings? These recipes are unique. Treat them as such.

 

They should at least offer a different front label for each recipe to differentiate the PS recipes from each other and from the SiB. I want to be able to easily spot their offerings at a bar and know exactly what i’m looking at without binoculars or asking the bartender for details. For those that hoard 4R PS’s (no judgment), I would imagine it would make organizing and selecting bottles from one’s bunker a hell of a lot easier.

 

Change the label color, font color, something. Hell I’ve had LS owners tell me they’re getting a 4R PS and when I ask which recipe they tell me they don’t know and some even look confused. If I’m 4R, i’d want to do a better job of differentiating my offerings and not forcing the public to get the decoder ring.

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JoeTerp

Love the topic.  I'd like to add on the Four Roses here.  While the younger private selects are a disappointing trend, I think the more disappointing trend is the relative disappearance of the K and O yeasts.  Sometimes I'll find an OESK, but that's it.  And the K's are my favorite.  I've really loved all the 10 year OBSK's I've had the chance to try (and even enjoyed an 8 year one).  I feel whenever I see a private select now (and sadly I have to drive to Maryland for that honor, but that's my states fault and not 4R) it's almost assuredly a Q or F yeast.  And while I've had some I like from there (more Q than F), these are generally my least favorite and I would much prefer a K or V (at 10 years of course).

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kevinbrink
18 hours ago, HoustonNit said:

BT products are somewhat more available here in Texas but I find them to be mostly kind of boring so other than standard BT and non WSR Weller I mostly avoid it.

That to a large degree matches my opinion on BT, nothing bad about it, but also nothing terribly exciting either, and similarly BT products aren't as hard to come by here as they apparently are in some other markets, though Weller, RHF & HPR tend to only show up briefly from time to time. Aside from a couple of the bigger chains who do lotteries/raffles I did not see a single BTAC or VW at under 300% of retail this year though which was a bit of a change from years past, I do think this is more of an issue with distributers than the stores or BT though as they sell "broken cases" at a substantial markup. 

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smokinjoe
16 hours ago, DeepCover said:

Great topic! It’s nice to read consolidated comments on various distilleries like this, and where we see their strengths and weaknesses.

 

On the topic of Maker’s Mark (a prime example of a distiller that’s missing the boat), I too continue to be disappointed with them. Now I’m sure they’d tell you, “Whatever do you mean? We now have the 46, Cask Strength, Private Select (with numerous stave combinations), and we recently came out with a duty free 101 proof!”. And I would say, “So what. Why don’t you give everyone what they’ve been asking for? Something that’s not barely old enough to go to First Grade. How about some age and proof??”

 

 

 Indeed, this is a great thread.

 

Regarding Maker's, I certainly would like to see some older aged whiskey, or combination of older whiskey with a higher, sub cask strength iteration to be added to their portfolio, but all things considered, I think they've stood up quite well.  To my tastes, standard Maker's does not suffer due to its age, and has remained a consistently high quality whiskey.  It should be remembered, that even with the additional mashing, fermenting, and distilling capacity that was brought on line in 2015, MM capacity is still only 3,000,000 cases.  8 years ago it was only 1,000,000 cases.  These are minuscule numbers.  And of course, they can sell that without even trying.  In that they have brought on the Cask Strength, 46, and the 46-like stave barrel select program in recent years, I have to give credit where credit is due.  They are again expanding warehousing capacity with 10 new rickhouses planned over the next couple of years.  Perhaps, this will allow them the opportunity to hold back some distillate for extended aging as we enthusiasts hope.  Besides the tangible product portfolio that Maker's has, I think their distillery property, tour, and investments in that part of their business are second to none, and contributes greatly to their customers enjoyment of their whiskey (it certainly does for me, and I try and hit it every time I'm in the Motherland.  It never gets old), the overall promotion and health of their brand, and also that of the overall industry.  These things should not be overlooked.

 

I look at MM positively as pretty much squeezing as much out of their turnip as realistically possible, rather than missing the mark of it's customers.  That said, if I could be granted one wish from them that could/should be doable, I would like to see a barrel select program for the standard Maker' Cask Strength.

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kevinbrink
4 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

 Indeed, this is a great thread.

 

Regarding Maker's, I certainly would like to see some older aged whiskey, or combination of older whiskey with a higher, sub cask strength iteration to be added to their portfolio, but all things considered, I think they've stood up quite well.  To my tastes, standard Maker's does not suffer due to its age, and has remained a consistently high quality whiskey.  It should be remembered, that even with the additional mashing, fermenting, and distilling capacity that was brought on line in 2015, MM capacity is still only 3,000,000 cases.  8 years ago it was only 1,000,000 cases.  These are minuscule numbers.  And of course, they can sell that without even trying.  In that they have brought on the Cask Strength, 46, and the 46-like stave barrel select program in recent years, I have to give credit where credit is due.  They are again expanding warehousing capacity with 10 new rickhouses planned over the next couple of years.  Perhaps, this will allow them the opportunity to hold back some distillate for extended aging as we enthusiasts hope.  Besides the tangible product portfolio that Maker's has, I think their distillery property, tour, and investments in that part of their business are second to none, and contributes greatly to their customers enjoyment of their whiskey (it certainly does for me, and I try and hit it every time I'm in the Motherland.  It never gets old), the overall promotion and health of their brand, and also that of the overall industry.  These things should not be overlooked.

 

I look at MM positively as pretty much squeezing as much out of their turnip as realistically possible, rather than missing the mark of it's customers.  That said, if I could be granted one wish from them that could/should be doable, I would like to see a barrel select program for the standard Maker' Cask Strength.

Every time I see a comment about BT having the best marketing in the industry I think to myself that they are light years behind Maker's, agree with all your points and I don't think anyone does a better job especially once you factor in the Ambassador program.

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flahute
4 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

 Indeed, this is a great thread.

 

Regarding Maker's, I certainly would like to see some older aged whiskey, or combination of older whiskey with a higher, sub cask strength iteration to be added to their portfolio, but all things considered, I think they've stood up quite well.  To my tastes, standard Maker's does not suffer due to its age, and has remained a consistently high quality whiskey.  It should be remembered, that even with the additional mashing, fermenting, and distilling capacity that was brought on line in 2015, MM capacity is still only 3,000,000 cases.  8 years ago it was only 1,000,000 cases.  These are minuscule numbers.  And of course, they can sell that without even trying.  In that they have brought on the Cask Strength, 46, and the 46-like stave barrel select program in recent years, I have to give credit where credit is due.  They are again expanding warehousing capacity with 10 new rickhouses planned over the next couple of years.  Perhaps, this will allow them the opportunity to hold back some distillate for extended aging as we enthusiasts hope.  Besides the tangible product portfolio that Maker's has, I think their distillery property, tour, and investments in that part of their business are second to none, and contributes greatly to their customers enjoyment of their whiskey (it certainly does for me, and I try and hit it every time I'm in the Motherland.  It never gets old), the overall promotion and health of their brand, and also that of the overall industry.  These things should not be overlooked.

 

I look at MM positively as pretty much squeezing as much out of their turnip as realistically possible, rather than missing the mark of it's customers.  That said, if I could be granted one wish from them that could/should be doable, I would like to see a barrel select program for the standard Maker' Cask Strength.

Thanks for the expanded thoughts on Makers my brother. Apart from thinking the whiskey tastes a bit young, I agree with everything you said. Their grounds and tour are about the best there is.

I tried to make the point in my original post, but was perhaps to brief and vague with it, that Maker's is doing exactly what they need to do for the satisfaction of their fans. They probably don't need the nerd contingent that we populate, but I sure wish they did! Then we might get some more age. The cask strength offering was certainly a nod towards that. I had one really good bottle of that but also a pretty bad one so as with my aversion to Larceny, I haven't gone back.

I am here ALL DAY for MMCS barrel select program. That could be amazing.

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PowderKeg
Posted (edited)

Really good topic and points discussed.  Glad to see Barton get some earned rec for some of the 1792 variants - one pleasant discovery after moving down here from the Holy Lands was finding 1792SW and HR on shelves at MSRP!  Not regularly/routinely available, but show up from time to time and will tend to sit at least a short while.  A few crooks grossly inflate the price, but most honest LS don't (one or two will hold for holiday drawings at MSRP).  FP and SIB are more frequently/regularly found, although FP has been climbing in price to more ridiculous levels lately.  1792BIB is the only one I haven't seen in the LR area yet - picked my couple up in Memphis last yr (also at MSRP).  Has the 12yr variant made it to shelves yet, or is it still just a wishful TTB label/description?   

 

I really hope HH will see the light and turn off the path to the Dark Side they're currently racing down - dropping well-thought-of and appreciated value labels to cheapen (without a similar drop in MSRP), divert elsewhere, or re-release as hugely overpriced LEs - OFbib, HH6yr bib, EC12yr, what next?  Then there are some other overpriced WTF puzzlers, like triple digit red label EW12yr and the brief triple digit attempt at Larceny BP, not to mention the other $$$$$ EW/Heritage Center shop offerings.  I'm not as forgiving as others above - I'll hold a long grudge and happily spend $ elsewhere if they continue to slash and burn their way through their extensive value BIB library.   

 

I'm REALLY stoked on what C&K may release in a few years - had a good taste of the Dog on the first Resto tour, and was it ever good!  They don't even let you sniff it on the reg tour now (one bummer in an otherwise great tour experience).  I'm a little fearful though that they'll pursue a near triple digit release price - I so hope they follow closer along in the footsteps of New Riff pricing-wise (Wilderness Trail too, although I still haven't cracked that BIB open yet), once it's mature enough to release.

 

I've also had surprisingly good luck on a handful of slightly-dusties and other not-so-LEs down here, esp compared to what I (didn't) see in KY.  Have found JBDS 7yr, FC6yr, Medley 10yr, one or two 1792RR 8yr, and even a 1/2 dozen 1L OFbib that somehow got lost and landed in a WLR LS.  Baby Saz and StJr pop up at MSRP (and sometimes even on sale!), rescued a few OE101 that were getting lonely on a MO LS shelf, and JBDC finally made it to AR a little while back and can still be found at a place or two (and a few more keep finding there way home to bunker from time to time).   As long as my luck continues to hold out, the near complete lack of BT products here won't be of any concern.  Heck, maybe one day I'll find a reason to cross the state line into the fabled land of plentiful Weller....

 

Maker's is also surprisingly cheap down here - the only stuff noticeably cheaper than back in KY - reg MM @ $20-22 on sale, MMCS at $50 +/- shelf price, M46 in mid-high $20s also on sale.  Like others, I'd love to see Maker's release an older MM, but judging by their significant markup for changing out some flavor staves in a PS M46, I doubt I'd like the price.

Edited by PowderKeg

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The Black Tot
11 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

 Besides the tangible product portfolio that Maker's has, I think their distillery property, tour, and investments in that part of their business are second to none,

Maybe before - but now they're a distant second to Castle and Key.

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Bob_Loblaw

Great write up and secondary posts.  

 

Agree BT has done a great job with building hype on the LE every fall.  I kind of feel like BT is preparing to take a huge market share in the coming years.  They kept hype levels high on most of their portfolio without raising MSRP so when the production ramps up the price will be so far below your average craft distiller I can't imagine how they will compete.  WSR is already much more available and I would imagine that Antique is next.  If pricing stays around $20-25 I imagine they will be selling A LOT of it before the market catches on that it is not so limited anymore.  

 

Regarding other distillers and Limited Editions here are a few annual releases I would love to see:

 

Wild Turkey - Bring back the Cheesy Gold Foil once per year.  Price $125-150 seems about right for this market.

Beam - Annual Booker's Anniversary release.  Anything from 9-14 years similar to the Old Fitz release HH is doing.  Price accordingly, but generally $120-200 would likely fly.  Regular Booker's has this hard finish that to me implies its just a lil bit too young.  

 

 

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Guss West

Fantastic thread.  This is why I read here. 

Also I learned that one of my favorite contributors and I share the same first name! 

 

 

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FasterHorses
3 hours ago, Guss West said:

Fantastic thread.  This is why I read here. 

Also I learned that one of my favorite contributors and I share the same first name! 

 

 

There’s two flahutes?!

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Spade

Great thread.

 

My overarching observation is that the relative advantage in the quality to price ratio isn't nearly the same as it used to be for bourbon relative to other spirits. I'll always be a fan of bottles like WT101 (nothing in the scotch world, or anywhere else for that matter, competes with bourbon for less than $25 in my book). But I think the value at the higher end is really diminished. There's definitely still some gems — I've long been a fan of RRSB and I think 1792 FP is very good for right around $40, but Booker's at $75 is comical to me and it's disappointing to see FR private selections continue to increase in price.

 

While I'm optimistic about how the distillery expansions will play out in a few years, 2018 continued the trend where I spend fewer and fewer of my spirits dollars on American whiskey. Looking forward, I think 2019 will be the first year in quite a while that American whiskey makes up fewer than half of the bottles I buy.

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The Black Tot
4 hours ago, Guss West said:

Also I learned that one of my favorite contributors and I share the same first name! 

"Mud?"

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Jazz June

I don't necessarily disagree with any of the posts here and I love some of the LEs, but just to play devil's advocate: why are we pushing for more LEs or other difficult to support products while at the same time complaining about the disappearance of daily drinkers, dropping of age statements, and old cheaper products being replaced by similar but more expensive new ones?

 

Living in a control state, I have no regular access to LEs at reasonable prices, so when I see some cool new high end release, my second thought (after: that sounds cool I'd like to try it) is: oh well, I'll never see that for sale. If WT offers a 12 year 101, that's less 12 year old whiskey for all of their other products. I give WT a lot of credit for pushing the age on the whiskey in their 101 back up now that they can, instead of putting out 101 8 year at twice the price as the regular. I'd rather see OWA get its 7 year statement back than see more Weller 12. The more older American whiskey I drink, the more I become convinced that not many barrels should be aged past 12 years or so (caveat: wheaters do seem to do better at higher ages, but my sample size on that is so small, I could easily be wrong). If given the choice between better availability and pricing on existing products versus the introduction of snazzy new relatively expensive products, I'll choose the former most of the time. With all of that said, I too wonder why so many of the major distilleries, who do a lot of things right, can't get it together and do some regular high quality LEs.

 

On a related note, it seems to me that most of the annual release or more often stuff people can't get comes from BT and HH, as far as majors go. OFBB and 4R LE SmB are exceptions, but for most of the other majors I can get their more limited regular releases if I really want (some of the prices are silly). WTMK is available, if not necessarily common. WR MC is available to some extent, even though I have no interest in paying the asking price. Some of the NDP releases are also hard to find (various Michters, AE CS, etc., etc.), but personally I'm pretty unlikely to shell out a premium price for mystery whiskey.

 

On the individual distilleries, I agree that Barton/1792 doesn't get enough love here. They put out solid stuff at solid prices. I never see a bottle of Sweet Wheat anywhere, but other than that can find their releases. I'll also defend Maker's Mark. I too would love to see some age stated MM products, but regular old MM is still a good bourbon to me and if anything it has gone down in price, not up, which seems crazy given everyone else's price changes. I may not drink it neat like I used to, but it is good in a cocktail and a definite crowd pleaser for non-enthusiast bourbon drinkers.

 

My appreciation for WT just continues to go up, no need to add much to the good discussion above. As far as Four Roses, the PS program seems to be declining: less availability, lower ages, and higher prices. That last bit might be more on the retailers, but it is what it is. My interest in obtaining all 10 recipes has declined, sad to say. We still go through lots of Four Roses SmB and SiB in my house and if the SiB becomes hard to find or sees a big price hike, I will be disappointed. Four Roses SiB remains one of my top 5 values in bourbon for now.

 

On BT, it's really just supply. I think they make lots of great bourbon (and rye) and they have not jacked prices too high (they could probably get away with it easily in the short term). I have read on here about Weller price increases coming down the pike and Eagle Rare has risen this year, but I think the value is still there. Availability is of course the giant issue, but what else can we do but continue to wait it out. I think that is better than the alternatives: decreases in quality or increases in price.

 

I have developed more appreciation for Beam over the years, but only so much. KC SiB PS is their best product to me. Bookers seems to have gone down in quality while going up in price. Bakers is good, but overpriced. Basil Hayden is 80 proof. They have done well to keep OGD BiB and 114 available and good value.

 

I like the standard Woodford Reserve fine, but the rest of their releases are boring, not great, or insanely priced. Old Forester is definitely the better Brown-Forman brand to me. The 1920 is good and I don't think they are really to blame for the crazy OFBB prices (MSRP is still reasonable I think). I haven't tried 1910 and it doesn't seem like my cup of tea, but their new releases seem decently priced (maybe a touch high) and properly supported so you can actually buy them.

 

Heaven Hill does some good products and keeps good prices on at least some things, but seems mostly headed in the wrong direction. I actually might prefer the EC SmB NAS to the 12, but recognize it is a different profile. I haven't had any PS of EC, maybe that would improve my opinion. McKenna 10 is good value, but seems like the next to become a ghost or change for the worse. Price has already risen. I like EW SiB for what it is, but more age would not hurt. While the BiB offerings are decreasing, the remaining ones are still good value.

 

MGP, well given that other companies sell most of their whiskey, is all over the place, but like many, if I see a decently aged and proofed MGP bourbon, I am interested. The MGP sourced Old Scout SiBs remain some of my favorite bourbon.

 

 

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HoustonNit

Several people mentioned a 12yr+ WT expression and pricing $120+. This seems interesting as they did the WT Masters Keep Decades in 2017. It can be had I think for $120 in most markets and I can find it for under $100. This is 104 proof batches of there best barrels and at 10-20 years and I thought I read most was over 14 years.

I want CGF but I want it because it’s old Turkey distillate at 12+ years. If they bring back CGF or some 12 year 101 expression I’m definitely interested but not paying more than or similar prices to any MK.

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Kepler
3 hours ago, HoustonNit said:

Several people mentioned a 12yr+ WT expression and pricing $120+. This seems interesting as they did the WT Masters Keep Decades in 2017. It can be had I think for $120 in most markets and I can find it for under $100. This is 104 proof batches of there best barrels and at 10-20 years and I thought I read most was over 14 years.

I want CGF but I want it because it’s old Turkey distillate at 12+ years. If they bring back CGF or some 12 year 101 expression I’m definitely interested but not paying more than or similar prices to any MK.

 

Good point. I find Decades to be similar in profile to later expressions (imports) of 12/101 albeit the Decades has less complexity of flavor.  But still fairly close.  Never had the good fortune to taste the CGF however

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flahute
3 hours ago, HoustonNit said:

Several people mentioned a 12yr+ WT expression and pricing $120+. This seems interesting as they did the WT Masters Keep Decades in 2017. It can be had I think for $120 in most markets and I can find it for under $100. This is 104 proof batches of there best barrels and at 10-20 years and I thought I read most was over 14 years.

I want CGF but I want it because it’s old Turkey distillate at 12+ years. If they bring back CGF or some 12 year 101 expression I’m definitely interested but not paying more than or similar prices to any MK.

Since I was the first person to mention the idea of a 12yr I'll expand upon my thoughts a bit.

You are absolutely correct that the Decades is in that general vicinity. And I like it.

My point was that Decades, and the way WT approaches LE's, is scattered and unpredictable. Decades is a one-off more or less. What I was getting at is that I'd like for WT to have something desirable that came out every year that we could look forward to. I chose the 12yr 101 basically as a call back to a recent offering that just about everyone loved. It could be something different. But if it came out every year in the fall and you could count on it, boy I'd look forward to that every year and buy the heck out of it. 

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The Black Tot

I give up. What's CGF?  Something Gold Foil?

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flahute
16 hours ago, Jazz June said:

I don't necessarily disagree with any of the posts here and I love some of the LEs, but just to play devil's advocate: why are we pushing for more LEs or other difficult to support products while at the same time complaining about the disappearance of daily drinkers, dropping of age statements, and old cheaper products being replaced by similar but more expensive new ones?

Speaking only for myself as the OP, I think you missed my point which is OK because I didn't make it very clearly! I was trying to fit a lot of info into as short as possible a post so I skipped on explaining a number of my points.

 

I am not pushing for more LE's. I'm asking for better LE's. All of the distilleries are putting out LE's except for MM and Barton. Beam, HH, WT, and Brown Forman are my main targets from the OP. All of them currently put out LE's. As in my response above, what I'm asking for is smarter choices and consistent choices. Don't let BT dominate the fall release season. Channel your LE resources into something truly desirable that comes out every year in the fall and that people look forward to. You can still do one-offs if you want, but have that one special thing that consumers associate with you. 

 

Not more. Just better and more focused.

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flahute
Just now, The Black Tot said:

I give up. What's CGF?  Something Gold Foil?

Cheesy Gold Foil.

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Kepler
33 minutes ago, flahute said:

What I was getting at is that I'd like for WT to have something desirable that came out every year that we could look forward to. I chose the 12yr 101 basically as a call back to a recent offering that just about everyone loved. It could be something different. But if it came out every year in the fall and you could count on it, boy I'd look forward to that every year and buy the heck out of it. 

 

I would too.  And have told Eddie and Bruce the same

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