High proof bourbon

[bingo]

I've noticed a number of bourbons bottled at 130+ proof. Its my understanding that the bourbon must go into the barrel at 125 proof or less. How do they get higher proof coming out of the barrel, am I missing something?

[mosugoji64]

As barrels age, water evaporates leading to a higher concentration of alcohol. This depends on temperature and placement in the rick house as some will lose a higher amount of alcohol leading to lower proof.

[bingo]

I was thinking along that line myself, I just assumed that the alcohol would evaporate first.

 

[fosmith]

I think humidity is a key factor.  The more humid the air around the barrel the less water will evaporate.  The drier the air, the more water will be drawn out of the barrel.  At least that's what I think...

[flahute]

2 hours ago, bingo said:

I was thinking along that line myself, I just assumed that the alcohol would evaporate first.

 

Water molecules are smaller than alcohol molecules and therefore pass through the wood easier.

[Mako254]

Bingo,

 

check out this bourbon podcast with Wild Turkey master distiller Eddie Russell. He spends a good deal of time talking rick houses and how barrels age.  Highly rec’d. 

 

https://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/9/1/b/91ba5a6dd3c1ce90/189-Eddie_Russell.mp3?c_id=34776680&forcedn=attachment&cs_id=34776680&expiration=1551923844&hwt=630333c47f4b1f5700b4d2ef93d9e268

[Richnimrod]

2 hours ago, flahute said:

Water molecules are smaller than alcohol molecules and therefore pass through the wood easier.

In fact, if it weren't for the higher vapor pressure of ethanol, one might expect to find even higher proofs after 6 or more years in a Kentucky rickhouse.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Richnimrod

[bingo]

14 hours ago, flahute said:

Water molecules are smaller than alcohol molecules and therefore pass through the wood easier.

That's the answer I was looking for, the only one that makes sense to me. Thanks for the info, I came to the right place to get the answer, you guy's are great.

[EarthQuake]

On 3/6/2019 at 5:36 PM, fosmith said:

I think humidity is a key factor.  The more humid the air around the barrel the less water will evaporate.  The drier the air, the more water will be drawn out of the barrel.  At least that's what I think...

Yes from what I understand temperature and humidity are the main factors. Depending on how humid it is, more water or more alcohol will evaporate over time. If it's a very humid location, little water will evaporate as the air is already saturated with h20, thus more alcohol evaporates and the proof will go down. If it's in a drier location, more water will evaporate and the proof goes up.

 

@WhiskeyBlender can explain this better than me, but from what Nancy has written Armagnacs will raise or drop in proof depending on the conditions (humidity), with barrels stored in musty old cellars tending to drop in proof. The behavior should be the same for Bourbon.

Edited March 10, 2019 by EarthQuake

[WhiskeyBlender]

On 3/9/2019 at 3:58 PM, EarthQuake said:

Yes from what I understand temperature and humidity are the main factors. Depending on how humid it is, more water or more alcohol will evaporate over time. If it's a very humid location, little water will evaporate as the air is already saturated with h20, thus more alcohol evaporates and the proof will go down. If it's in a drier location, more water will evaporate and the proof goes up.

 

@WhiskeyBlender can explain this better than me, but from what Nancy has written Armagnacs will raise or drop in proof depending on the conditions (humidity), with barrels stored in musty old cellars tending to drop in proof. The behavior should be the same for Bourbon.

You're spot on with this, @EarthQuake, and others are as well. Temperature affects the DIRECT rate at which ethanol and water are lost, whereas humidity affects the RELATIVE rate at which they are lost. Hot conditions of course accelerate evaporation of BOTH ethanol and water. Warmer temperatures also accelerate the creation of more oxidative reactions in the whiskey, so that more acids and esters will form. Excessive heat can also lead to too much tannic influence. 

 

It is interesting to note that maturation stalls at 45 degrees Fahrenheit, meaning that if the temperature inside the warehouse falls to that temperature long enough so that the temperature of the LIQUID inside the barrels is 45 or below, the barrels will go into complete dormancy. 

 

With high humidity, there will be greater ethanol loss, so the alcohols strength will decrease over time. These kind of conditions can generally be found in the lower levels of a rick house, especially near in areas that are more northward. Conversely, low humidity leads to more water than ethanol being lost, so that alcohol strength will increase over time. In general, barrels that are facing a southern wall will not be as affected by as much humidity.

 

It is important to add that part of this will also be determined by the type of building materials used in the rick house. So, for instance, at a distillery like MGP where the warehouses are mostly concrete and they are near water, the proof will gradually fall from their entry proof of 120. At that distillery, it isn't uncommon to see the proof fall even in the upper floors, although the drop won't be as abrupt as it would on the lower floors. At distilleries that have this kind of rick house, maturation is on more of a seasonal curve, and they don't have a lot of diurnal temperature variation. 

 

At distilleries that feature white-sided and roofed metal-clad rick houses where there is low thermal resistance with high reflectivity and little insulation, there will be greater diurnal temperature variation, with sizable temperature variations between the upper and lower floors, especially in the summer months. These kind of rick houses also tend to have a lot of variation in proof and between the upper and lower floors. Good examples of this would be at Willett or Heaven Hill. 

 

Rick houses that are metal-clad and are painted black will have low thermal resistance and low reflectivity, so it will be very, very cold in the winter time, and very, very hot in the summer time, especially on the upper floors. These rick houses offer the most "extreme" form of maturation. They tend to have the greatest proof differences and aromatic differences between barrels housed from the upper to lower floors. A classic example of this would be found at Makers Mark. 

 

Also worth noting is that humid conditions will have a big affect on the mouth feel of a spirit, so that with more humid conditions, the spirit will be rounder and smoother on the palate. However, it is possible to have conditions that are actually too humid. In this case, alcohol is lost too fast and as the proof continues to fall, the spirit will become what is known as "flabby." It loses structure and tastes a lot like a flat soft drink. 

 

In conditions that are generally warmer with less humidity, where the proof rises over time, the spirits will tend to become drier and spicier. Just as it is possible to have conditions that are too humid, it is also possible to have conditions that are too dry. This is a big issue at distilleries that are in very arid environments. Without some form of humidity control, the barrel staves will start to crack, there will be extreme loss of both ethanol and water, and the spirits will actually start to taste too dry and spicy. 

 

The one thing I didn't get into that also affects this whole dynamic is how ventilation, or controlled airflow can have a big influence on the temperature and humidity in a rick house. I won't go into much depth there, except to say that in some types of warehouses, such as the metal-clad type, both cross and stack ventilation are necessary, especially in the hot months, to control humidity and temperature, and the ethanol-water pockets that tend to form around the barrels. Although ventilation is necessary the hotter the conditions become, with greater ventilation also comes greater evaporative losses. I digress......

 

At any rate, I didn't mean to write the Great American Novel in this post, but I do hope it sheds some more light on the nuances of how proof is gained or lost during bourbon maturation. 

 

Whew that was exhausting......I'm going to go recover now with a mint julep and WT with some fresh mint that's springing up in my garden!

 

Cheers,

Nancy

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by WhiskeyBlender

[JMFH]

32 minutes ago, WhiskeyBlender said:

You're spot on with this, @EarthQuake, and others are as well. Temperature affects the DIRECT rate at which ethanol and water are lost, whereas humidity affects the RELATIVE rate at which they are lost. Hot conditions of course accelerate evaporation of BOTH ethanol and water. Warmer temperatures also accelerate the creation of more oxidative reactions in the whiskey, so that more acids and esters will form. Excessive heat can also lead to too much tannic influence. 

 

It is interesting to note that maturation stalls at 45 degrees Fahrenheit, meaning that if the temperature inside the warehouse falls to that temperature long enough so that the temperature of the LIQUID inside the barrels is 45 or below, the barrels will go into complete dormancy. 

 

With high humidity, there will be greater ethanol loss, so the alcohols strength will decrease over time. These kind of conditions can generally be found in the lower levels of a rick house, especially near in areas that are more northward. Conversely, low humidity leads to more water than ethanol being lost, so that alcohol strength will increase over time. In general, barrels that are facing a southern wall will not be as affected by as much humidity.

 

It is important to add that part of this will also be determined by the type of building materials used in the rick house. So, for instance, at a distillery like MGP where the warehouses are mostly concrete and they are near water, the proof will gradually fall from their entry proof of 120. At that distillery, it isn't uncommon to see the proof fall even in the upper floors, although the drop won't be as abrupt as it would on the lower floors. At distilleries that have this kind of rick house, maturation is on more of a seasonal curve, and they don't have a lot of diurnal temperature variation. 

 

At distilleries that feature white-sided and roofed metal-clad rick houses where there is low thermal resistance with high reflectivity and little insulation, there will be greater diurnal temperature variation, with sizable temperature variations between the upper and lower floors, especially in the summer months. These kind of rick houses also tend to have a lot of variation in proof and between the upper and lower floors. Good examples of this would be at Willett or Heaven Hill. 

 

Rick houses that are metal-clad and are painted black will have low thermal resistance and low reflectivity, so it will be very, very cold in the winter time, and very, very hot in the summer time, especially on the upper floors. These rick houses offer the most "extreme" form of maturation. They tend to have the greatest proof differences and aromatic differences between barrels housed from the upper to lower floors. A classic example of this would be found at Makers Mark. 

 

Also worth noting is that humid conditions will have a big affect on the mouth feel of a spirit, so that with more humid conditions, the spirit will be rounder and smoother on the palate. However, it is possible to have conditions that are actually too humid. In this case, alcohol is lost too fast and as the proof continues to fall, the spirit will become what is known as "flabby." It loses structure and tastes a lot like a flat soft drink. 

 

In conditions that are generally warmer with less humidity, where the proof rises over time, the spirits will tend to become drier and spicier. Just as it is possible to have conditions that are too humid, it is also possible to have conditions that are too dry. This is a big issue at distilleries that are in very arid environments. Without some form of humidity control, the barrel staves will start to crack, there will be extreme loss of both ethanol and water, and the spirits will actually start to taste too dry and spicy. 

 

The one thing I didn't get into that also affects this whole dynamic is how ventilation, or controlled airflow can have a big influence on the temperature and humidity in a rick house. I won't go into much depth there, except to say that in some types of warehouses, such as the metal-clad type, both cross and stack ventilation are necessary, especially in the hot months, to control humidity and temperature, and the ethanol-water pockets that tend to form around the barrels. Although ventilation is necessary the hotter the conditions become, with greater ventilation also comes greater evaporative losses. I digress......

 

At any rate, I didn't mean to write the Great American Novel in this post, but I do hope it sheds some more light on the nuances of how proof is gained or lost during bourbon maturation. 

 

Whew that was exhausting......I'm going to go recover now with a mint julep and WT with some fresh mint that's springing up in my garden!

 

Cheers,

Nancy

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great info!  Thanks for posting this.

[Harry in WashDC]

On 3/6/2019 at 4:35 PM, bingo said:

I was thinking along that line myself, I just assumed that the alcohol would evaporate first.

 

Bernie "Whiskey Prof" Lubbers has written books and is an employee - Brand Ambassador, I think - for HH.  Here's a link to his online "course" re: What happens in the barrel.

 

http://www.whiskeyprof.com/water-and-alcohol-molecules-and-barrels/

 

There are more and better books on the science and art of bourbon and whiskey, and if you want to know more than what's in the article, read it first and get back to "us".  FWIW, the "Search" function should turn up LOTS/TONS/HEAD-CHOKNG discussions on this as well as several "book" lists.  HINT - Be sure to have a SHORT pour when you start your research; it really helps.

[Harry in WashDC]

2 hours ago, WhiskeyBlender said:

You're spot on with this, @EarthQuake, and others are as well. Temperature affects the DIRECT rate at which ethanol and water are lost, whereas humidity affects the RELATIVE rate at which they are lost. Hot conditions of course accelerate evaporation of BOTH ethanol and water. Warmer temperatures also accelerate the creation of more oxidative reactions in the whiskey, so that more acids and esters will form. Excessive heat can also lead to too much tannic influence. 

 

It is interesting to note that maturation stalls at 45 degrees Fahrenheit, meaning that if the temperature inside the warehouse falls to that temperature long enough so that the temperature of the LIQUID inside the barrels is 45 or below, the barrels will go into complete dormancy. 

 

With high humidity, there will be greater ethanol loss, so the alcohols strength will decrease over time. These kind of conditions can generally be found in the lower levels of a rick house, especially near in areas that are more northward. Conversely, low humidity leads to more water than ethanol being lost, so that alcohol strength will increase over time. In general, barrels that are facing a southern wall will not be as affected by as much humidity.

 

It is important to add that part of this will also be determined by the type of building materials used in the rick house. So, for instance, at a distillery like MGP where the warehouses are mostly concrete and they are near water, the proof will gradually fall from their entry proof of 120. At that distillery, it isn't uncommon to see the proof fall even in the upper floors, although the drop won't be as abrupt as it would on the lower floors. At distilleries that have this kind of rick house, maturation is on more of a seasonal curve, and they don't have a lot of diurnal temperature variation. 

 

At distilleries that feature white-sided and roofed metal-clad rick houses where there is low thermal resistance with high reflectivity and little insulation, there will be greater diurnal temperature variation, with sizable temperature variations between the upper and lower floors, especially in the summer months. These kind of rick houses also tend to have a lot of variation in proof and between the upper and lower floors. Good examples of this would be at Willett or Heaven Hill. 

 

Rick houses that are metal-clad and are painted black will have low thermal resistance and low reflectivity, so it will be very, very cold in the winter time, and very, very hot in the summer time, especially on the upper floors. These rick houses offer the most "extreme" form of maturation. They tend to have the greatest proof differences and aromatic differences between barrels housed from the upper to lower floors. A classic example of this would be found at Makers Mark. 

 

Also worth noting is that humid conditions will have a big affect on the mouth feel of a spirit, so that with more humid conditions, the spirit will be rounder and smoother on the palate. However, it is possible to have conditions that are actually too humid. In this case, alcohol is lost too fast and as the proof continues to fall, the spirit will become what is known as "flabby." It loses structure and tastes a lot like a flat soft drink. 

 

In conditions that are generally warmer with less humidity, where the proof rises over time, the spirits will tend to become drier and spicier. Just as it is possible to have conditions that are too humid, it is also possible to have conditions that are too dry. This is a big issue at distilleries that are in very arid environments. Without some form of humidity control, the barrel staves will start to crack, there will be extreme loss of both ethanol and water, and the spirits will actually start to taste too dry and spicy. 

 

The one thing I didn't get into that also affects this whole dynamic is how ventilation, or controlled airflow can have a big influence on the temperature and humidity in a rick house. I won't go into much depth there, except to say that in some types of warehouses, such as the metal-clad type, both cross and stack ventilation are necessary, especially in the hot months, to control humidity and temperature, and the ethanol-water pockets that tend to form around the barrels. Although ventilation is necessary the hotter the conditions become, with greater ventilation also comes greater evaporative losses. I digress......

 

At any rate, I didn't mean to write the Great American Novel in this post, but I do hope it sheds some more light on the nuances of how proof is gained or lost during bourbon maturation. 

 

Whew that was exhausting......I'm going to go recover now with a mint julep and WT with some fresh mint that's springing up in my garden!

 

Cheers,

Nancy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TOTALLY off thread - Nancy, the latest JAM is stunning.  Only my opinion, of course.

[flahute]

Nancy @WhiskeyBlender has taken us to another master class. Pay attention everyone.

Edited March 14, 2019 by flahute

[WhiskeyBlender]

13 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

 

 

TOTALLY off thread - Nancy, the latest JAM is stunning.  Only my opinion, of course.

Wow, thanks @Harry in WashDC! I'm somewhat hesitant to write this, but I have to admit that of the Magnus line of bourbons, JAM is not a personal favorite. Not that I don't "like" it, I certainly do and I think we do a good job of it, but I'm not a huge fan of Sherry paired with corn because there's already a lot of sweetness on the palate from the corn. I do like sherry casks when paired with malted barley, however, since the balance is better overall. If I hadn't discovered that the original JAM from over 100 years ago used Sherry butts to age and/or finish the bourbon, I would not have used that in the 21st century version. At any rate, I'm thrilled to hear you like it though! 

 

Cheers,

Nancy

Edited March 14, 2019 by WhiskeyBlender

[bingo]

On 3/13/2019 at 8:16 PM, Harry in WashDC said:

Bernie "Whiskey Prof" Lubbers has written books and is an employee - Brand Ambassador, I think - for HH.  Here's a link to his online "course" re: What happens in the barrel.

 

http://www.whiskeyprof.com/water-and-alcohol-molecules-and-barrels/

 

There are more and better books on the science and art of bourbon and whiskey, and if you want to know more than what's in the article, read it first and get back to "us".  FWIW, the "Search" function should turn up LOTS/TONS/HEAD-CHOKNG discussions on this as well as several "book" lists.  HINT - Be sure to have a SHORT pour when you start your research; it really helps.

Thanks for the link, short and to the point explanation, I didn't even finish my pour.