Pappy - Stitzel Weller vs Buffalo Trace

[clearmoon247]

For those of you who have been lucky to try Pappy Van Winkle distilled/aged by both Stitzel Weller and Buffalo Trace, how drastically different are they? Did Buffalo Trace properly take the reigns from SW in the production of the now legendary bourbon?

[Richnimrod]

36 minutes ago, clearmoon247 said:

For those of you who have been lucky to try Pappy Van Winkle distilled/aged by both Stitzel Weller and Buffalo Trace, how drastically different are they? Did Buffalo Trace properly take the reigns from SW in the production of the now legendary bourbon?

Not sure what you mean in your question about whether BT 'properly took the reins' of production of the Van Winkle line.   Julian contracted with 'em to produce it from a specified mashbill (most assume it's the same wheated mashbill as the rest of BT's Weller line-up)   

If you're asking if it's identical in all respected to what had been bottled 20-years ago, I don't think anybody would suggest that it is.   

If you're asking if it's close, I'd say many would say it's within the range, and generally pretty good whiskey.   

For me, I'd say it's noticeably different from the earlier SW stuff; but, not vastly different, and not what I'd describe as 'inferior', just as a little 'different'.   

Every still confers it's own subtleties, as does every rickhouse and many locations within each rickhouse, so the BT stuff will almost certainly differ, no matter what steps are taken to limit those differences.   I'm sure Julian is very careful with his brands and insists that BT is as well, so I don't foresee much diverging from what has been bottled over the last several years for the foreseeable future.

All the preceding is just my own opinion, of course.

[BottledInBond]

I would agree with much of what @Richnimrod said, although I think I am in the camp that thinks the SW era VW was clearly better. But everyone has different preferences and I don’t think everyone agrees with how much of a difference I think there is. 
 

The current VW juice is good wheated whiskey, but it’s just impossible for anything to 100% replicate anything made somewhere else (and at a different time in history). Even with the same mashbill, they aren’t using the same still, they aren’t using the same fermenters, rickhouses, they aren’t using water from the same source, and I’m not sure if they’re using the same yeast. Those all can have significant impacts.

 

In addition to all that, for people who think that the humans doing the distilling make an impact in the final product, they don’t have the same people doing the distilling. Sure they might still have Julian tasting some barrels but he isn’t the distiller involved with any of the production. But then again, Julian has never distilled a drop of whiskey in his life either. He was never distilling at SW himself, so it’s not like he could bring tons of extra insights into BT regarding production to try to help them match the SW profile.

 

The current VW is fine whiskey. It just isn’t the same as the legendary juice that built the hype of the brand and it never will be. There are plenty of people who try to get fancy bottles to display them and never actually open them that have no idea, and for them, ignorance is bliss.
 

 

[The Black Tot]

The difference ain't worth a thousand bucks, that much is for sure.

 

Unless spending a thousand bucks to you is like the rest of us eating at McDonald's. But I expect if it were, you'd already know?

 

Even BT juice has been variable throughout the years, although somewhat less.

 

SW PVW23 is how I learned what overoaked meant (an invective which I find to be slung loosely and inconsistently at anything over 15yrs, whether true or not. But it was true in the case of that PVW23). 

 

I have paper label OWA distilled at BT that is better, and cost me 23 bucks.

 

A great SW bourbon is a special thing, but so is a great BT bourbon. SW was widely reported to be less consistent - not necessarily surprising, or their fault, given the advances in fermentation and process control technology that were unavailable to SW prior to 1992.

 

To summarize, if you hook into a BT honey barrel, what you're drinking is pretty much the highest level of wheater there is, and ever was, and you don't need to sweat Stitzel Weller FOMO.

 

 

[BottledInBond]

@The Black Tot the difference certainly isn’t worth a thousand. But no bottle is really worth a thousand total anyway in terms of what is in your glass. I can say definitively that people are crazy for paying $1,000 for the current versions of any PVW. Most people paying $1,000 for a bottle don’t drink it anyways, they put it on a shelf as a trophy to try to impress people. And if you have enough $ that you can afford those types of decorations, good for you I suppose.

 

You’re absolutely right that a BT honey barrel can be amazing and exceed the quality of many SW products. Certainly SW distilled and bottled a wide range of products like every other distillery, from bottom shelf to top. For BT wheaters, some years of WLW are absolutely epic and to me I’d rather drink most years of WLW versus current PVW. Unfortunately, BT doesn’t make very many of their best products available as single barrels the the public at this point. None of the VW or BTAC line is single barrel. The exception I guess is Blanton’s but that’s because BT doesn’t own that product line so they aren’t making those decisions. There has been and handful of OWA (and now OWAFP) barrel picks made available by BT and that’s about it besides BT and ER barrel picks. 
 

[The Black Tot]

18 minutes ago, BottledInBond said:

There has been and handful of OWA (and now OWAFP) barrel picks made available by BT and that’s about it besides BT and ER barrel picks. 

You must have very big hands

[BottledInBond]

11 minutes ago, The Black Tot said:

You must have very big hands

Well, they used to do plenty of Weller barrel picks, but they certainly aren’t very common these days. And the OWA they put out today certainly isn’t 7 year (or likely much older in the actual bottle) like the old paper label SW OWA you referenced

 

In general, while BT gets lots of love/hype, they really lack in comparison to some other distilleries in terms of single barrel products, in my opinion anyway 

[The Black Tot]

1 hour ago, BottledInBond said:

In general, while BT gets lots of love/hype, they really lack in comparison to some other distilleries in terms of single barrel products, in my opinion anyway 

Fair enough. 

 

Personally, I see a whole lot of OWA pics being mentioned with reasonable regularity in the what did you buy today threads. That doesn't mean they're easy to get or what we'd call readily available - but stores certainly seem to be getting a fair number of cracks at it. It just feels like there's none because they sell out so fast when they do happen, if they even see a shelf at all.

 

I've also seen scads of BT store picks and semi regular ER store picks (ER less frequently lately, admittedly). 

 

I have heard that the BT barrel selection experience is very much a seller's market "take it or leave it, we have a line waiting behind you" experience, but I do think a pretty steady clip of private barrels are coming out of there.

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by The Black Tot

[Jazzhead]

Can't respond to the topic at hand,  as my Pappy bottles are long gone.   I can, say, though, that the best wheated bourbon out there today, IMO, is neither Weller nor Larceny.   It's McKenzie's Bottled in Bond.    I was thoroughly enjoying a dram of that juice last evening,   and gives me everything I could want in a good wheated bourbon.  

[The Black Tot]

5 minutes ago, Jazzhead said:

I can, say, though, that the best wheated bourbon out there today, IMO, is neither Weller nor Larceny.   It's McKenzie's Bottled in Bond.     

 

Certainly keen to give it a shake. Will keep my eye out...

[Bob_Loblaw]

3 hours ago, BottledInBond said:

There has been and handful of OWA (and now OWAFP) barrel picks made available by BT and that’s about it besides BT and ER barrel picks. 
 

 

2 hours ago, BottledInBond said:

 

In general, while BT gets lots of love/hype, they really lack in comparison to some other distilleries in terms of single barrel products, in my opinion anyway 

You mentioned OWA, FullProof and BT which can be single Barrels when done as picks. Eagle Rare is always a single barrel. And Blanton’s.

 

What about EH Single Barrel, Elmer, Rock Hill? Those are also standard Single Barrel offerings from BT. WSR can also be a single barrel pick. 
 

Seems like a pretty good amount to me. Now if you are saying you would like more barrel details (Age, location, even just barrel number) about the ones I just listed I am 100% on board for that. 

[BottledInBond]

15 minutes ago, Bob_Loblaw said:

 

You mentioned OWA, FullProof and BT which can be single Barrels when done as picks. Eagle Rare is always a single barrel. And Blanton’s.

 

What about EH Single Barrel, Elmer, Rock Hill? Those are also standard Single Barrel offerings from BT. WSR can also be a single barrel pick. 
 

Seems like a pretty good amount to me. Now if you are saying you would like more barrel details (Age, location, even just barrel number) about the ones I just listed I am 100% on board for that. 

BT took “single barrel” off of the regular Eagle Rare label a few years ago now. It is currently only a single barrel product if it is one of the fairly scarce barrel picks they still do of it. 
 

As I mentioned with Blanton’s, BT doesn’t own that brand or make the choices on whether or not it is bottled as a single barrel. They don’t own Rock Hill Farms either. They contract distill those for AI. Frankly I’m not sure off the top of my head if BT or AI owns the Elmer T Lee brand. Anyone out there know for sure?

 

I had totally forgotten about EHT Single Barrel so thanks for the reminder on that one.

 

In regards to my overall comment about BT and how their single barrel offerings compare to other distilleries, I just think other competitors are better and/or more consistent with single barrel products, whether they’re store picks or not. For one obvious example, Four Roses. You can buy Four Roses Single Barrel in about every store in the country and usually for a fair price and pretty good quality. They also have their private barrel program which has been one of the best in the business for a long time, and has produced some of the best honey barrels I’ve ever had. They’ve also in the past done their single barrel LE (which seems to have ended with Elliott’s Select). Then there is Wild Turkey, and again you can usually get Russell’s Reserve single barrel bourbon and/or rye in most stores and they’re good. And they also have regular barrel picks and some of those are awesome. Beam has been putting out some really good KC bourbon & rye single barrels lately, their single barrel is in every store and plenty of 11-14 year bourbon picks at $40ish prices? We also got a little spoiled with some epic Willett single barrels as well as the Smooth Ambler Old Scout line for a while. BT does mainly BT store picks now, a few ERs, and some Wellers. They don’t have any regular single barrel product that is consistently on the shelves in most stores like FR/WT/Beam(KC). They don’t really do any of their high end LEs as single barrels like some have done (FR as noted above, HH has also done some PHC as single barrel, Willett). I’m just saying, while BT gets much praise/hype in general, I don’t think they compete as well in the single barrel category specifically. 

 

[RWBadley]

Lots of good info here for sure.

 

I've been lucky enough to have tried basically all or most Pappy and Old Rip from about 1995 or so on. Granted my memory is pretty hazy on the timeline and prices, so I hope nobody gouges me for that...

 

The old rip squat bottle 10 and the 12yo were always very good for the price points at the time. It seems they were around 25$ish- 35$ish.

 

I loved me the 13yo Rye. These were variable over the years in character but always a great pour.

 

The 15yo and 20yo cost more in the range of 40$ish to 50$ish and I generally thought the 20yo a bit over the hill for the most part- tho some years were quite good.

 

The 15yo was always the sweet spot for my taste. An OK price point and such a great nose and flavor balance most years. This era could show off some of the best and I really have to thank Julian III and whoever might have been putting this together at the time. I do recall when I did still have the AH Hirsch 16 and 20yo in the same general era the consensus among us tasters here was the Hirsch was a slightly more interesting and well structured pour and always shot to the top in our informal tastings.

 

Having said that, at that time the whisky glut was on and we were drinking routinely of Scotch and Bourbon on unobtainium lists today. Pre closure Ardbeg from the 70's, Dallas Dhu, Rosebank, Port Ellen, Glen Scotia, Springbank. Many incredible dusty and not so dusty whiskies were found. Cheap.   The old Turkey 12 and some Mattingly and Moore were pretty awesome from what I remember. M&M surprised me with such a velvety maple syrup delivery it was incredible. So during this time the old SW juice had some very stiff competition it wasn't always able to better, but it was another arrow in the quiver- and good stuff.

 

I have not had any of the BT Pappiez for several years, speaking to some of the last I tasted from around 2013-2014 I thought they were quite good- tho the price point was starting to skyrocket and availability plummet and the value wasn't there for me anymore. I did several comparisons (not blind) and speaking for the 15yo only I found a fresh bottle of 2013 paled in comparison to some older pre BT 15yo I still had at the time. A bit unfair as the older bottle had been open a while. So there's that.

 

My take is if offered a 15yo at anything less than 200 I'd probably bite to see how the 15 is doing these days. But given market forces that seems unlikely.

 

I do recall during the 00's the BTAC line became my go-to rather than the Pappy and old rips. So this does show the BT juice to me as being top notch for sure and a worthy successor maybe even more so.

 

So- I'll probably just continue to enjoy the heck out of ECBP,   Stagg Jr,   Rebel Yell 10yo,   OF 1920,  and some old bottles of Barterhouse 20yo and Rhetoric 20yo I managed to save an extra or two of in the bunker. There's always something out there worth drinking... 

 

Cheers,

RW

[dcbt]

1 hour ago, Jazzhead said:

I can, say, though, that the best wheated bourbon out there today, IMO, is neither Weller nor Larceny.   It's McKenzie's Bottled in Bond.   

Having never heard of McKenzies, I had to google this one to make sure you weren't mistakenly thinking McKenna BiB is a wheater.   I'm actually a little surprised HH hasn't contested that name. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by dcbt

[Jazzhead]

16 minutes ago, dcbt said:

Having never heard of McKenzies, I had to google this one to make sure you weren't mistakenly thinking McKenna BiB is a wheater.   I'm actually a little surprised HH hasn't contested that name. 

It's from Finger Lakes Distilling in New York.   Not an easy bottle to find, but definitely worth your consideration.   Could well be the best craft whiskey I've yet tried.    Here are some product reviews from the K&L Wines website:  , https://www.klwines.com/p/i?i=1387606

[dad-proof]

1 hour ago, RWBadley said:

There's always something out there worth drinking

hear, hear.

[StarSurfer55]

I know this a little off topic but I have a well to do friend that has a well stocked bar with trophy bottles that he never opens. 

 

As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing as a trophy bottle.  Bourbons were made to be drank, not sit on a shelf. I may have bottles that I only pull out for special occasions but they will be drank - usually with close friends or family.

[flahute]

12 hours ago, The Black Tot said:

I have heard that the BT barrel selection experience is very much a seller's market "take it or leave it, we have a line waiting behind you" experience, but I do think a pretty steady clip of private barrels are coming out of there.

 

You are correct.

[musekatcher]

I recently got to try the 15.  We wanted to try the 23, but discovered the bottle was only a display, and EMPTY.  Anyway, we started with MM, moved to Weller 12, then PVW15.  Its always difficult to assign pricing with subtle differences, but if cost is no object, 2 of 3 of us felt the PVW15 was just barely more flavorful, and more delightful than the Weller.  The outlier was still reeling from the cost, so we picked up the tab, lol.  At anyrate, it was exciting.  And, we were delighted with the Weller 12, as its actually attainable occasionally in the region.  

 

Having noticed how different the same unchanged brand can taste in adjacent years, I wouldn't think there is much point to compare products over even longer periods.  Its really been surprising how much change there is in flavor profiles year-to-year, even for my crude palette.  I was shocked by a recent new bottle of EWBIB.  Its much cruder than a couple years ago.  I'm glad I saved a couple old bottles from previous seasons.  .  

Edited October 24, 2019 by musekatcher