Aging

[Jimbourb]

On 2/11/2020 at 6:47 PM, CUfan99 said:

Welcome to SB from a fellow south cackalakian! There’s a pretty common held opinion that at least certain bottles react favorably to being opened and getting the level of whiskey down past the bottle’s shoulders to provide more air contact. Barrel strength 4R can be hot and tight when 1st opened. A month or so open seems to really change them for the better. I’ve noticed it with many other brands and bottles too. Some say it’s our imagination though. 

Thanks for the warm welcome, and I appreciate all of your insight.  Cheers!

[Jimbourb]

On 2/11/2020 at 7:22 PM, EarthQuake said:

When it comes to distilled spirits, "age" means something very specific: to spend time in a barrel. Bourbon and other whiskies are stored in charred oak barrels for years, as the seasons pass and the temperature fluctuates, the spirit moves in and out of the wood, extracting flavors and generally becoming more complex. As soon as the whiskey comes out of the barrel, aging stops. If you have a bourbon that spent 10 years in the barrel, and 10 years in the bottle, it's no a 20 year old bourbon. It's 10 years old and always will be 10 years old. 

 

When it comes to aging whiskey at home, you've got limited options. You can buy small (1-5 liter) oak barrels on the internet, and fill them with your spirit of choice. This will restart the aging process. However, these small barrels have a very high ratio of wood surface area to spirit, so they impart oak flavor very quickly and it's easy to over do it. Additionally, they're often of poor quality. So you can age your whiskey by putting them in these barrels, but they generally will not improve whiskey that is already well aged. Something fun that you can do with these barrels is to soak them in something else for a few weeks, like sherry or port, and then dump the liquid and fill it with whiskey to create a "finished" whiskey, but be careful and taste it every day, 1 week is usually a good amount for a 1L barrel. But honestly, if you're looking to improve the quality of your whiskey, these barrels, or the little oak sticks you can put into the bottle, are best avoided. They won't turn bad whiskey into good, and they're more likely to make good whiskey taste worse.

 

Generally, when people talk about a whiskey improving after it has been opened, they're talking about exposing the whiskey to air, also known as oxidation - which is not the same thing as aging, though oxidation is an import part of the aging process. You'll frequently see the phrase "air time", and that refers to oxidation. As whiskey (or any spirit, wine, beer, etc) is exposed to oxygen, the flavor changes. A simple illustration of this concept is opening a bottle of wine, after 10 minutes in the glass the wine will "open up", and after a few days a half filled bottle of wine may taste significantly different. Whiskey is a lot more stable than wine or beer though, so the effects of oxidation are less dramatic, and happen over a longer time frame.

 

All whiskey oxidizes, even unopened bottles - just at a very slow rate because there is relatively little oxygen in the bottle. Oxidation does change the flavor of the whiskey too, that's something that I think most people would agree on. Now, where this gets contentious is: how much and for the better? Opinions vary wildly, with some believing that oxidation has little to no effect on whiskey, and that whiskey is stable more or less indefinitely. Others worry that oxidation will ruin the spirit in a short period of time, and take extra measures like using wine preserving gas to remove the oxygen from the bottle, or transferring the liquid to a smaller bottle when the fill level gets low. If we accept that oxidation does change the flavor of the whiskey, the next question is, does it improve or degrade? You'll find it difficult to get any sort of consensus on this point. A reasonable position would be: it varies. Depending on the whiskey, it may improve or degrade with time. For instance, I've found barrel proof whiskies generally hold up very well, while whiskies finished or aged in wine casks hold up less well - though these are very much anecdotal findings. It would be safe to assume that some amount of oxidation is good for most whiskies, but that too much will eventually degrade the spirit. So if you have a special, opened bottle with a low fill level that you plan to keep for a long time (many years), wine gas or transferring it to a smaller vessel is a good idea.

 

I've done some simple experiments myself. I used a couple bottles from a single barrel whiskey (same barrel), and drank one down to the point where there was about 1oz left in the bottle. I then let it sit, stewing in oxygen, for a full year. Then I opened the other bottle, and had my wife do blind pours so I didn't know which was which. It was very difficult for me to find differences between the whiskies, and while I felt like I could detect a small difference, I guessed incorrectly when trying to figure out which was which. This leads me to believe that oxidation can change the taste of whiskey, but at a very slow rate, even for opened bottles.

 

So if it is a very slow and subtle process, why do we see people writing comments such as "I hated it at first but then I came back it after it had some air time and it was a lot better". Well, some suggest there is a psychologic component at play - that what changes more than anything is your perception of the whiskey as you get to know it. I think there is something to that, maybe a lot to that. What you eat, drink, smoke, or generally ingest into your body will make a big difference as to how you taste as well. So some of these "it sucked then it was great" reports should be taken with a grain of salt - the person may have had a spicy curry before having it the first time, they may have been eating cookies when they thought it was great (a combination I've never been disappointed by).

 

Lastly, we have UV exposure. I think this is the one point nearly everyone will agree on. Exposure to UV light can significantly damage whiskey, and in a fairly short time frame (months-years). If at all possible you should store your whiskey in a dark, climate controlled place. If you intend to leave bottles out on display, exposed to direct sunlight, colored bottles are best, as they filter UV light more effectively than clear bottles.

 

At the end of the day, the best thing you can do to really enjoy your whiskey is, well, enjoy it. Pour it in a glass and drink it. Don't worry so much about if it might change or home remedies to somehow make it taste better. Any whiskey worth drinking is already delicious.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the all the detail EarthQuake!

[Ryan Dee]

Sure has been a lot covered in this thread already. I can only add that in my personal experience with bourbon, scotch and other international whiskey's over the last 25 years is;

 

The lower the ABV, the more oxidation can effect it. I've had single malt scotch @ 40% become difficult to drink neat after a mere 6 months with a half full bottle, where as bourbon is a much tougher spirit and can take a bit longer, but still @ 40% will maybe last a yr under similar circumstances. The higher the ABV, the less effect it can have on it. I say "Can" with a grain of salt, as not all will change, and some will change rapidly. I think this all depends on bottle design, closure design and couple other factors. You can see things with 50%+ change fast if the closure & bottle are not a good design, and the ethanol deplete rapidly. This will take away a lot of those characters it spent so much time in the cask trying to make.

 

That being said, I have had Single Malt's open for 2-3yrs but are higher ABV, and in some cases take precautions since they are more delicate & have a tendency to be more susceptible to oxidation transformation. Tougher grains like Corn and Rye take a lot more for the effect to occur. I used to have (at 1 time) a bottle of Rye made in Penn, and it was a high octane spicy treat, but it took 5-6 yrs for it to really see any effects. It felt softer and much easy to approach and realized it was loosing it's ethanol and rounding it out. There wasn't much left by then so it was an honorable kill in my book.

 

All in all it comes down to the individual and how they consume. Some will have 5-6 opens while others have 100+ opens. You just have to be away of what you have and how it changes & do what you think should be done to maintain your collections.....If not, drink faster, LOL

[Shizzy]

On 2/11/2020 at 4:22 PM, EarthQuake said:

they may have been eating cookies when they thought it was great (a combination I've never been disappointed by).

Dosidos and Booker's.  Just sayin'.

[DanP]

This is certainly an interesting topic.  I have found that most bourbons I have at home have tasted a little different from first taste to the next, even if there are only a couple of days between tasting.  But I have serious doubts that it has anything to do with oxidation.

 

I mean, think about it.  The bourbon has been exposed to air for years (usually) prior to being bottled.  It's hard for me to believe that oxidation over days or weeks would cause any significant change to the flavor.  You would think that anything that was going to be oxidized would have done so already, right?  My bet is that there are, as has been suggested, psychological and environmental factors at play here.  And there's also the makeup of the space between the cork and the top of the liquid in the bottle that escapes every time you open the bottle.  That likely has more alcohol in it than water which could affect the solubility of some of the compounds in the bourbon that affect taste.  That last bit is really a bit of a reach I guess.  But certainly temperature and sunlight would have a much more marked affect than oxidation possibly could.

[Clueby]

I've got a 1.75 of Willett Pot Still that seems to be well sealed. It's been moved around a bit so the cork should have been wetted a time or two. This batch is from 2016. The top line is from when it was new. The second line down is from around August of last year. Its lost maybe 2". Since they are just elastic bands they may have a BIT but not that far. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Clueby

[WhiskeyBlender]

On 2/11/2020 at 4:22 PM, EarthQuake said:

When it comes to distilled spirits, "age" means something very specific: to spend time in a barrel. Bourbon and other whiskies are stored in charred oak barrels for years, as the seasons pass and the temperature fluctuates, the spirit moves in and out of the wood, extracting flavors and generally becoming more complex. As soon as the whiskey comes out of the barrel, aging stops. If you have a bourbon that spent 10 years in the barrel, and 10 years in the bottle, it's no a 20 year old bourbon. It's 10 years old and always will be 10 years old. 

 

When it comes to aging whiskey at home, you've got limited options. You can buy small (1-5 liter) oak barrels on the internet, and fill them with your spirit of choice. This will restart the aging process. However, these small barrels have a very high ratio of wood surface area to spirit, so they impart oak flavor very quickly and it's easy to over do it. Additionally, they're often of poor quality. So you can age your whiskey by putting them in these barrels, but they generally will not improve whiskey that is already well aged. Something fun that you can do with these barrels is to soak them in something else for a few weeks, like sherry or port, and then dump the liquid and fill it with whiskey to create a "finished" whiskey, but be careful and taste it every day, 1 week is usually a good amount for a 1L barrel. But honestly, if you're looking to improve the quality of your whiskey, these barrels, or the little oak sticks you can put into the bottle, are best avoided. They won't turn bad whiskey into good, and they're more likely to make good whiskey taste worse.

 

Generally, when people talk about a whiskey improving after it has been opened, they're talking about exposing the whiskey to air, also known as oxidation - which is not the same thing as aging, though oxidation is an import part of the aging process. You'll frequently see the phrase "air time", and that refers to oxidation. As whiskey (or any spirit, wine, beer, etc) is exposed to oxygen, the flavor changes. A simple illustration of this concept is opening a bottle of wine, after 10 minutes in the glass the wine will "open up", and after a few days a half filled bottle of wine may taste significantly different. Whiskey is a lot more stable than wine or beer though, so the effects of oxidation are less dramatic, and happen over a longer time frame.

 

All whiskey oxidizes, even unopened bottles - just at a very slow rate because there is relatively little oxygen in the bottle. Oxidation does change the flavor of the whiskey too, that's something that I think most people would agree on. Now, where this gets contentious is: how much and for the better? Opinions vary wildly, with some believing that oxidation has little to no effect on whiskey, and that whiskey is stable more or less indefinitely. Others worry that oxidation will ruin the spirit in a short period of time, and take extra measures like using wine preserving gas to remove the oxygen from the bottle, or transferring the liquid to a smaller bottle when the fill level gets low. If we accept that oxidation does change the flavor of the whiskey, the next question is, does it improve or degrade? You'll find it difficult to get any sort of consensus on this point. A reasonable position would be: it varies. Depending on the whiskey, it may improve or degrade with time. For instance, I've found barrel proof whiskies generally hold up very well, while whiskies finished or aged in wine casks hold up less well - though these are very much anecdotal findings. It would be safe to assume that some amount of oxidation is good for most whiskies, but that too much will eventually degrade the spirit. So if you have a special, opened bottle with a low fill level that you plan to keep for a long time (many years), wine gas or transferring it to a smaller vessel is a good idea.

 

I've done some simple experiments myself. I used a couple bottles from a single barrel whiskey (same barrel), and drank one down to the point where there was about 1oz left in the bottle. I then let it sit, stewing in oxygen, for a full year. Then I opened the other bottle, and had my wife do blind pours so I didn't know which was which. It was very difficult for me to find differences between the whiskies, and while I felt like I could detect a small difference, I guessed incorrectly when trying to figure out which was which. This leads me to believe that oxidation can change the taste of whiskey, but at a very slow rate, even for opened bottles.

 

So if it is a very slow and subtle process, why do we see people writing comments such as "I hated it at first but then I came back it after it had some air time and it was a lot better". Well, some suggest there is a psychologic component at play - that what changes more than anything is your perception of the whiskey as you get to know it. I think there is something to that, maybe a lot to that. What you eat, drink, smoke, or generally ingest into your body will make a big difference as to how you taste as well. So some of these "it sucked then it was great" reports should be taken with a grain of salt - the person may have had a spicy curry before having it the first time, they may have been eating cookies when they thought it was great (a combination I've never been disappointed by).

 

Lastly, we have UV exposure. I think this is the one point nearly everyone will agree on. Exposure to UV light can significantly damage whiskey, and in a fairly short time frame (months-years). If at all possible you should store your whiskey in a dark, climate controlled place. If you intend to leave bottles out on display, exposed to direct sunlight, colored bottles are best, as they filter UV light more effectively than clear bottles.

 

At the end of the day, the best thing you can do to really enjoy your whiskey is, well, enjoy it. Pour it in a glass and drink it. Don't worry so much about if it might change or home remedies to somehow make it taste better. Any whiskey worth drinking is already delicious.

 

 

 

 

@EarthQuake, this is such a thorough and eloquent answer. Thanks! 

[ThirstyinOhio]

On 2/13/2020 at 5:48 PM, BottledInBond said:

Well the actual Glencairn glass is less than 20 years old, created in 2001. And for someone that doesn’t want to sound preachy, saying something isn’t debatable and is a fact is just wrong. It is intended to concentrate aromas according to the company that makes them. But that’s the thing, it’s all just marketing. There certainly may be other glasses out there that are better for nosing a whiskey. That is certainly debatable.

 

Maybe you should tell some of the most prominent whiskey producers of the last few decades that they’ve been drinking their whiskey incorrectly? Well you can’t really tell Parker since he’s dead but the point remains the same, that it is very debatable  about what glass is best for what uses, and I am far from alone in my stance. 
 

For the record, the Glencairn glass was developed to be a malt whisky glass. Malt whiskey generally being bottled at lower proofs than many high end American whiskies. Regardless it eventually became popular with a wider variety of whisky/whiskey. In my opinion, and the opinions of many other people, many higher proof whiskies do not benefit from what the Glencairn glass is trying to do. In fact, many people believe it detracts from the experience with big barrel proof whiskies. I don’t need a narrow glass to try to further concentrate the nose of a hazmat GTS or ECBP release.

 

 

 

 

Speaking of marketing....that's exactly what these photos are so it isn't surprising that use glasses that work well with their logos for these photos.  I wouldn't take these shots as being what they use for tasting.  Is the Glencairn the best glass for nosing/tasting?  Maybe and maybe not...it is what I prefer but go into most of the tasting labs at the distillers and they aren't using them.  The often use a copita style glass (as seen in some of the other photos), but the whiskey is also usually proofed much lower than bottling strength.  The rocks glass...old fashion...double old fashion...whatever you want to call the style in this glass is my least favorite glass for drinking whiskey by far, but I won't turn down a pour if you give it to me in one.

 

We sure have hit on a lot of topics in this discussion....the effect of air in an opened bottle, bottle aging, why old whiskey tastes different, which glasses are the best....and everyone seems to have their own answer.  This is why I love whiskey, it constantly encourages conversation and debate.

 

Personally, I think air sometimes affects whiskey, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse, but I rarely notice a difference if a bottle has only a few ounces out of it even if it has been a year plus.  That being said, I had to drain pour a Jefferson's bourbon a few weeks ago as it had gone completely undrinkable with a weird sour note.  That bottle was half way empty and stored out of sunlight, but had been opened for probably 7 or 8 years.  

 

As to whiskey aging in a bottle, it absolutely does.  Whiskey isn't a stable compound and various elements can and will affect the rate that it "breaks down", including UV and heat.  But in practical terms, I think it would take several decades for the whiskey inside a bottle to become noticeable different than when it was first bottled if stored in protected environment (away from high heat, humidity, UV, and so forth).  Those old bottles that people in this hobby often romance (cheesy gold foils, old Old Forester, even Maker's Mark from the 70's) do taste different than their current offerings but I think it has to do with production changes, including those changes in the 80's to reduce the amount of urethane present.  

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by ThirstyinOhio

[kaiserhog]

Back to aging, wouldn't y'all want to know how old your whiskey is?  I have nothing against single-digit age statements.  In fact, they are preferable for Kentucky and Tennessee whiskey. 

[flahute]

27 minutes ago, kaiserhog said:

Back to aging, wouldn't y'all want to know how old your whiskey is?  I have nothing against single-digit age statements.  In fact, they are preferable for Kentucky and Tennessee whiskey. 

I always prefer to know how old my whiskey is. Regarding single digit age statements, it depends on which floor of the rickhouse it was aged on. If the first floor, you definitely want double digits.

[Flyfish]

On 5/6/2020 at 11:43 PM, kaiserhog said:

Back to aging, wouldn't y'all want to know how old your whiskey is?  I have nothing against single-digit age statements.  In fact, they are preferable for Kentucky and Tennessee whiskey. 

Perhaps this issue has been addressed above, but age stated bourbons only list the youngest distillate in the bottle. If it is a mingling (as in various Turkeys)  the target flavor profile is achieved by a little of this and a little of that. Knowing the age of the youngest is often not very useful. Even if label said the bottle contains 6, 8, and 10 YO bourbons, you still don't know how much of which. And, as flahute notes, the location(s) is/are critically important so maybe we need to add that to the label, Sure, I would like to know how old my bourbon is but I don't obsess about it. If it tastes good, it is good regardless of age--assuming at least four years, anyway. I tend to prefer a range of 8-12 YO but have been quite happy with bourbon anywhere from 4 to 18. NAS doesn't bother me except when I get nervous about a formerly aged stated bourbon changing the profile I had grown accustomed to. Elijah Craig comes to mind. 

 

[kaiserhog]

On 5/8/2020 at 1:16 PM, Flyfish said:

Perhaps this issue has been addressed above, but age stated bourbons only list the youngest distillate in the bottle. If it is a mingling (as in various Turkeys)  the target flavor profile is achieved by a little of this and a little of that. Knowing the age of the youngest is often not very useful. Even if label said the bottle contains 6, 8, and 10 YO bourbons, you still don't know how much of which. And, as flahute notes, the location(s) is/are critically important so maybe we need to add that to the label, Sure, I would like to know how old my bourbon is but I don't obsess about it. If it tastes good, it is good regardless of age--assuming at least four years, anyway. I tend to prefer a range of 8-12 YO but have been quite happy with bourbon anywhere from 4 to 18. NAS doesn't bother me except when I get nervous about a formerly aged stated bourbon changing the profile I had grown accustomed to. Elijah Craig comes to mind. 

 

I understand the age of the youngest whiskey is what goes on the label and I approve.  I commend Wild Turkey for listing the age of all the whiskey in some of their offerings.  I think trying to taste what proportion 6, 8, and 10 year old whiskey is in the mix by tasting is a good part of the fun.  JMHO.

Edited May 12, 2020 by kaiserhog