Still Austin and 'Slow Water Reduction'

[DeepCover]

Hi, Nancy. Thanks for all the details provided here. I’m loving this thread. I’ve been embarrassed to ask this question, but because it’s on topic, I’ll take the opportunity. I’ve wondered why boise hasn’t been used. You mention it’s not permissible in bourbon. Is that due to the restrictions defining bourbon (I’m not sure which requirement it would violate) or is there a more technical explanation, in terms of the chemistry, as to why it isn’t used? If the former, what’s your opinion about the profile it might produce? Would it likely be a good whiskey? I’m surprised no one has done it, even if they can’t call it bourbon. My apologies in advance for asking perhaps a silly question.

[DeepCover]

@WhiskeyBlender

I’m unable to edit my post above and forgot the “atmention”. 
To perhaps better-define my question above, I’m not sure what the guidelines are for boise, but what I’m really getting at is, is there a way to impart oak/wood influence to the water itself prior to proofing down whiskey? Perhaps that may not fall under the definition of boise in the traditional sense. With so much attention shown to what’s in the barrel (which is important), is there some latitude for creativity with the water source when proofing down that could give more oak influence to the whiskey?

[WhiskeyBlender]

9 hours ago, DeepCover said:

@WhiskeyBlender

I’m unable to edit my post above and forgot the “atmention”. 
To perhaps better-define my question above, I’m not sure what the guidelines are for boise, but what I’m really getting at is, is there a way to impart oak/wood influence to the water itself prior to proofing down whiskey? Perhaps that may not fall under the definition of boise in the traditional sense. With so much attention shown to what’s in the barrel (which is important), is there some latitude for creativity with the water source when proofing down that could give more oak influence to the whiskey?

@DeepCover, just wanted you to know that I've read your questions regarding boisé, etc. I'm getting over a summer cold after getting back from my Wyoming trip, but I'll certainly get back to you in the next day or so, once I'm feeling a little more intelligent! 

 

Cheers,

Nancy

[flahute]

7 minutes ago, WhiskeyBlender said:

@DeepCover, just wanted you to know that I've read your questions regarding boisé, etc. I'm getting over a summer cold after getting back from my Wyoming trip, but I'll certainly get back to you in the next day or so, once I'm feeling a little more intelligent! 

 

Cheers,

Nancy

Boooooooo summer colds. The worst.

[WhiskeyBlender]

1 hour ago, flahute said:

Boooooooo summer colds. The worst.

@flahute, indeed! So not fun when it is hot as blazes outside and your snout feels like a water spout! 

 

Cheers Friend, 

N. 

[wadewood]

On 7/4/2020 at 5:45 PM, DeepCover said:

Hi, Nancy. Thanks for all the details provided here. I’m loving this thread. I’ve been embarrassed to ask this question, but because it’s on topic, I’ll take the opportunity. I’ve wondered why boise hasn’t been used. You mention it’s not permissible in bourbon. Is that due to the restrictions defining bourbon (I’m not sure which requirement it would violate) or is there a more technical explanation, in terms of the chemistry, as to why it isn’t used? If the former, what’s your opinion about the profile it might produce? Would it likely be a good whiskey? I’m surprised no one has done it, even if they can’t call it bourbon. My apologies in advance for asking perhaps a silly question.

Bourbon, be it Straight or not, can't have anything added to other than water.  You might want to read this - https://www.ttb.gov/images/pdfs/spirits_bam/chapter7.pdf

[DeepCover]

Thanks, @wadewood. So if Maker’s decided to throw some seared French cuvée chips in boiling water for a period of time, filter out the solids, and use that water to proof down their standard straight bourbon offering, they couldn’t call it bourbon?

[wadewood]

1 minute ago, DeepCover said:

Thanks, @wadewood. So if Maker’s decided to throw some seared French cuvée chips in boiling water for a period of time, filter out the solids, and use that water to proof down their standard straight bourbon offering, they couldn’t call it bourbon?

No.  There is a very specific section of TTB code that deals with any treatment with wood outside of the normal barrel.  27 CFR 5.39 (c) Treatment with wood. The words “colored and flavored with wood ___ (insert chips, slabs, etc., as appropriate)” shall be stated as a part of the class and type designation for whisky and brandy treated, in whole or in part, with wood through percolation, or otherwise, during distillation or storage, other than through contact with the oak container.

[DeepCover]

Thanks again, @wadewood. I’ve wondered this for quite a while and felt too silly to ask until the right topic came up.

[WhiskeyBlender]

1 hour ago, wadewood said:

No.  There is a very specific section of TTB code that deals with any treatment with wood outside of the normal barrel.  27 CFR 5.39 (c) Treatment with wood. The words “colored and flavored with wood ___ (insert chips, slabs, etc., as appropriate)” shall be stated as a part of the class and type designation for whisky and brandy treated, in whole or in part, with wood through percolation, or otherwise, during distillation or storage, other than through contact with the oak container.

@DeepCover, looks like @wadewood got to answer this question sooner than I could. Many thanks Wade! That's a great and thorough answer. 

 

Outside of the legal restrictions, the only thing I would add is that for Bourbon, even if adding boisé to it was legal, you wouldn't need that tool because you already have enough oxidized tannin content in the liquid, since it spends its entire life in one barrel. 

 

For brandies, it is customary for the newly distilled EDV (eau de vie) to only spend about 9 months to 1 year in new quecus Robur casks (i.e., French Limousin oak). Since this oak species has at least 10 times the amount of tannins and is much more porous than American white oak (q. Alba), it doesn't need much time on this oak before being transferred to used cooperage. The barrels sizes, at least in the Cognac world, are also 92 gallons/350 liters vs. the 53 gallon/200 liter American oak barrels (400 liters for Armagnac). During that first 9 months to 1 year or so, it would normally absorb all the barrel extractives that it needs for long term maturation. 

 

However, occasionally, and for various reasons (i.e., the maturation conditions are not ideal, or the EDV didn't pick up enough initial tannins and other extractives from the 1st barrel, etc.), this process does not go as originally intended, and it is necessary to add a little more oxidized tannins and other oak extractives to it to help it along. This is why boisé would be added. 

 

On a tangent, the oldest boisé that I have ever had the pleasure of tasting was over 60 years old, and came from a small artisanal Cognac maker, François Méry, distiller and cellar master at Cognac Méry Melrose. His grandfather had made that boisé! He used microscopic amounts of it in his XO and Ancestral Cognacs. Words cannot describe just how delicious that boisé was by itself! It was like tasting liquid oak ambrosia. 

 

I have a bunch of boisé samples at my house that my mentor, Hubert Germain-Robin, had laid down when he first started distilling in California in the early '80's. The best of those boisé's is 20+ years old, called "ReMuVi" (for Riesling/Muscat/Viognier), which is a blend of these 3 grape varietals that were distilled on the lees in order to gain more complexity for long-term maturation. This, too, is so quaffable and complex that you could just drink it as is. I've personally made some boisé's using high ester rum that were delicious like that as well. 

 

At any rate, I severely digress.......I guess my cold is starting to subside and my energy is returning. 

 

Between Wade and me, I hope this helps! 

 

Cheers,

Nancy

 

 

 

[DeepCover]

Thanks, @WhiskeyBlender. Very informative, as always, and I greatly appreciate the time and detail you put into your responses. And please keep the tangents/side stories coming! We love those too.