Older Bourbon

[Wrangler]

I've seen some aged Bourbon here and there but was wondering, is there a cut-off age where Bourbon simply does not get any better?

I really want to try a really old Bourbon, just to say I did but if there's really no difference or there's only a difference if you have a truly discerning palate, I probably shouldn't shell out the big $$ for a really old Bourbon.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?

[Cornmuse]

17 Year old Wild Turkey Master's Keep is already starting to show too much barrel, but it's still very good.  The bourbons I've had that are older than 15 years are always a bit of a crapshoot.  Older doesn't mean better and, honestly, the big $$ PVW, ER17, AHH14 and others that I've been fortunate enough to sample have never really struck me as tasting any better than a good 8 to 12 year old whiskey and certainly not proportional to the increase in price.  Doubling the price for a barely discernable difference (or in some instances maybe a step down - looking at you 15yo KC) isn't a good bargain, imho.  So having said that, try to sample at a high-end bar.  The atmosphere will make it that much more special and you'll have a good meal, too.  

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Cornmuse

[BottledInBond]

36 minutes ago, Wrangler said:

I've seen some aged Bourbon here and there but was wondering, is there a cut-off age where Bourbon simply does not get any better?

I really want to try a really old Bourbon, just to say I did but if there's really no difference or there's only a difference if you have a truly discerning palate, I probably shouldn't shell out the big $$ for a really old Bourbon.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?

You’ll hear tons of different opinions on this, and there are many different factors from what type of mashbill it is the where it was stored, to personal preferences. There are plenty of people out there who think that not many bourbons get much better beyond 10-12 years, and think they quickly get too oaky or tannic after that. Some people love old bourbons though and you can find ones at 20+ years. I would suggest trying the stuff you drink often and compare it to some relatively older stuff that isn’t too hard to obtain to see which you prefer, before bothering to seek out the really old (and often expensive) stuff. A good place to look might be Knob Creek barrel picks, where many have been available in 13-15 year ranges in recent years and are often under $50. Other options to go older could include the Harper 15 year that is around $70 in my area when I see it, as well as the Orphan Barrel series that includes some pretty old options. You can go to Elijah Craig 18 or the Wild Turkey Master’s Keep latest edition recently came out as a 17 year, but this’d are going to cost you $150 or more. And then you can go to really scarce stuff from BT/VW and others if you want to really spend a lot of money. But, I think many here will suggest diminishing quality/value propositions in many of these older bourbons. You never know without trying for yourself though. Maybe seek out a bar in your area that has a good selection (if open in this plague.....) and try a few by the glass before investing in pricey bottles. Have fun with it however you go

Edited July 14, 2020 by BottledInBond

[Wrangler]

Thanks for the input guys! 

[Whiskeythink.com]

For me, I always found PVW 15 a little to oaky (never had the older ones; would like to try but wont pay the $). Ive had quite a few 13-15+ yr KCSB, & most are a nice balance of oak & sweeties, but some are over-oaked & lack complexity. I guess its a matter of taste, but I agree with those who say its just to iffy to justify the price. Thats whats great about all those old KCSB picks - you can try age at a good price, but thats only 1 profile. A buddy has an EC18, if I could just get him to open it!

[Radioyada]

It is my belief that better or worse is all a personal preference.  Older is usually just an indicator of higher prices and less availability.

[PaulO]

Some brands chill filter and add water to bring the proof down.  A product could have a big number age statement, but have a good portion of the flavors removed or neutralized.  I think that is the case with I. W. Harper 15.  It gets so-so reviews.

Orphan Barrels seem to have a few fans.  It's probably the oldest age stated stuff you'll find (that isn't crazy expensive).  Again, it's filtered and diluted, so it's kind of a gimmick.

I've tried the WT Master's Keep 17, and Decades.  They are good, but I'd spend my own money on multiple bottles of Rare Breed or KY Spirit.

Taking into account many factors, I'd call the age to perceived quality relationship a bell shaped curve.  Eventually a barrel will get to a point.  It's only good to dump into a big batch, if there's anything left.

 

 

[flahute]

7 hours ago, Wrangler said:

I've seen some aged Bourbon here and there but was wondering, is there a cut-off age where Bourbon simply does not get any better?

I really want to try a really old Bourbon, just to say I did but if there's really no difference or there's only a difference if you have a truly discerning palate, I probably shouldn't shell out the big $$ for a really old Bourbon.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?

BIB and Paul O have done a good job explaining it. To expand, age on a whiskey correlating to quality, whether young or old, depends on where and how the whiskey was aged. If the barrel is on the first floor, in the middle, of a 7 or 9 story rickhouse, it's going to age very slowly because it's cool and damp there. That's when the proof goes down in the barrel. I once tried a 16yr wheated bourbon aged that way in one of the Heaven Hill Schenley rickhouses. We tasted right out of the barrel and it's barrel proof had dropped to 99. There was not even a hint of oak in this whiskey and it was one of the most complex and best whiskies I have ever tasted.

Conversely, a barrel on the top floor of that same warehouse will age rather quickly at only 4-5 years. It will also taste very different. If you are contemplating an older whiskey and can't drink it first, try to find out how it was aged. Not always possible of course. HH releases aged product (usually 12-16yrs) under the William Heaven Hill brand at their gift shop. I have a number of these and none have ever been over oaked. They also have EW23yr at their gift shop downtown and depending on my palate that day it can either taste just slightly oaked or not at all.

Like mentioned above, I've also had a PVW15 that tasted oaky. As you can see, it's always going to be a case by case situation.

[fishnbowljoe]

The intricacies of rickhouse storage have been explained in a couple of above posts. On a much more simplified level, it’s been said that the “sweet spot” for bourbon is between  7-10 years of age, and somewhere around 100 proof. YMMV
 

Biba! Joe

[Wrangler]

All good stuff!  Thank you all!

Looks like I've got some studying and drinking to do.  Lol!!  Never has a task appealed to me more.

[WhiskeyBlender]

@Wrangler, it looks like @flahute, @BIB+, @PaulO, @Cornmuse and others have done a very eloquent job of explaining the how's and why's of the taste of older bourbons, so I won't go there. I'd like to just add that I've had the good fortune/misfortune, depending upon how you think of it, of personally working with Bourbons (mostly MGP both 21 and 36% recipes) all the way up to 22 years old. I've found that it is very rare to find a stellar single barrel at this age. What those barrels tend to be great for most of the time is to use them as part of a blend, so that you get the suggestion of more age and complexity that can be found in an older Bourbon, but without all the super tannic and other negative qualities of an older Bourbon barrel by itself. 

 

That said, I've also been able to watch stock age and I've traced a number of older single barrels over time, so that I've watched the maturation from, 1 to 22 years. What I've seen is that, depending upon all the warehousing and maturation factors that others have mentioned above, barrels tend to go through crests and troughs that may last several years. For instance, starting at 10 years old, the bourbon might be really good during years 10, 11, and 12, but then taper off at 13, 14, and 15 years. It might come back out of the trough during years 16, 17 and part of 18 years, but then go through another trough for the second half of 18 and all of 19 years. A few barrels at this age might make a sudden "comeback" at age 20, but then go back into a trough again at 21. 

 

At least in the brandy world (i.e., Cognac, Armagnac, Calvados, etc.), where all barrels are checked yearly and moved from one cask to another when and if needed, it is common knowledge that barrels go through "oxidation cycles" during the lifetime of their maturation. Since Bourbon usually isn't checked in this same way and stays in one barrel throughout its maturation life, this probably isn't as common an observation. Nonetheless, any type of spirit including Bourbon will go through these oxidation cycles over time, and the rate of time will depend upon all the factors mentioned above. 

 

Hope this helps shed a little more light on the subject. My advice would be to see if you can first have a taste of a particular older expression that you're interested in possibly buying, AND make sure it comes from the SAME single barrel or batch # as what you'll be buying. Otherwise, it is a crapshoot, as others have already expressed. Otherwise, it might be best to just buy a Bourbon that has a little older whiskey mingled in with it. 

 

Good luck in your older Bourbon pursuits, and cheers!

Nancy

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by WhiskeyBlender

[Wrangler]

15 minutes ago, WhiskeyBlender said:

@Wrangler, it looks like @flahute, @BIB+, @PaulO, @Cornmuse and others have done a very eloquent job of explaining the how's and why's of the taste of older bourbons, so I won't go there. I'd like to just add that I've had the good fortune/misfortune, depending upon how you think of it, of personally working with Bourbons (mostly MGP both 21 and 36% recipes) all the way up to 22 years old. I've found that it is very rare to find a stellar single barrel at this age. What those barrels tend to be great for most of the time is to use them as part of a blend, so that you get the suggestion of more age and complexity that can be found in an older Bourbon, but without all the super tannic and other negative qualities of an older Bourbon barrel by itself. 

 

That said, I've also been able to watch stock age and I've traced a number of older single barrels over time, so that I've watched the maturation from, 1 to 22 years. What I've seen is that, depending upon all the warehousing and maturation factors that others have mentioned above, barrels tend to go through crests and troughs that may last several years. For instance, starting at 10 years old, the bourbon might be really good during years 10, 11, and 12, but then taper off at 13, 14, and 15 years. It might come back out of the trough during years 16, 17 and part of 18 years, but then go through another trough for the second half of 18 and all of 19 years. A few barrels at this age might make a sudden "comeback" at age 20, but then go back into a trough again at 21. 

 

At least in the brandy world (i.e., Cognac, Armagnac, Calvados, etc.), where all barrels are checked yearly and moved from one cask to another when and if needed, it is common knowledge that barrels go through "oxidation cycles" during the lifetime of their maturation. Since Bourbon usually isn't checked in this same way and stays in one barrel throughout its maturation life, this probably isn't as common an observation. Nonetheless, any type of spirit including Bourbon will go through these oxidation cycles over time, and the rate of time will depend upon all the factors mentioned above. 

 

Hope this helps shed a little more light on the subject. My advice would be to see if you can first have a taste of a particular older expression that you're interested in possibly buying, AND make sure it comes from the SAME single barrel or batch # as what you'll be buying. Otherwise, it is a crapshoot, as others have already expressed. Otherwise, it might be best to just buy a Bourbon that has a little older whiskey mingled in with it. 

 

Good luck in your older Bourbon pursuits, and cheers!

Nancy

 

 

Thank you very much Nancy!!