What happened with SAOS

[FasterHorses]

Really weird fall from grace. When i see a store pick i prepare myself for 7,8,9 year old bourbon on the label because thats where their barrels should be by now…but alas its always 5 years maybe a 6 occaisonally. Do they put older stuff out in other regions? Are they content being an also ran? I believe i heard they went back to MGP after they botched their own distillate… if true i wish they could recreate that old majik.

[PaulO]

I looked up what my local TW has available.  Click on Single Barrel gets redirected, so they must not have it.  They do offer: Old Scout 99 proof, Contradiction Rye, and Contradiction Whiskey.  Not sure about the Old Scout.  The Contradiction(s) claim to be blends of whiskies from WV (I assume their own), IN and KY.  

I have no idea what's going on with their own make nowadays.  Given they seem to only use it as a component of for blending, what are the possibilities.  They don't distill a lot.  It's not good on its' own (or both).

It sort of reminds me of HW.  Great sourced barrels became hard to get, unavailable or expensive.  Their own make not a factor when it eventually came along.

[b1gcountry]

I loved the old stuff. Very nice high rye bourbon,  with a ton a sweet cherry and easy to drink. The bottles from 6-7 years ago were great. I haven't actually tried their own stuff.

 

MGP in general is turning inward to using their own barrels for their own Bourbon. The Remus bottles and the Belle Meade bottles are the closest I've come to the old SAOS SB

[FasterHorses]

HW is a good comparison Paul. 

[mbroo5880i]

Maybe they are a victim of their stellar MGP barrel selects.  Some of those barrels rivaled some of the WFE MGP barrels.  They weren't able to replicate similar whiskies. When you go to their website, the majority of the whiskies seem to be from MGP.  In the Indy area, there are literally dozens of MGP NDP brands.

[0895]

On 4/27/2024 at 9:15 PM, FasterHorses said:

Really weird fall from grace. When i see a store pick i prepare myself for 7,8,9 year old bourbon on the label because thats where their barrels should be by now…but alas its always 5 years maybe a 6 occaisonally. Do they put older stuff out in other regions? Are they content being an also ran? I believe i heard they went back to MGP after they botched their own distillate… if true i wish they could recreate that old majik.

 

Basically victims of their own success and the boom finally hitting MGP.

For better or worse, they did a really good job of procuring good MGP barrels "back in the day" and successfully sold almost ALL of them prematurely.

Meaning that their plan had originally intended for that whiskey to last until they got their own distillate aged and salable.

So as a cult following for the good MGP stuff quickly developed and really took off (around 2016-2017 IIRC), they sold through it very quickly as hunters scooped them up for basically bargain prices.  The last remaining barrels of 12y+ bourbon and rye were sold periodically through releases at the gift shop with people waiting in line to buy them at much higher prices than they previously retailed for (market correction if you will).

In 2016 Pernod Richard bought the SA distillery.  No idea if this had any effect on their actions or products.

After that well ran dry and the price on MGP aged bourbon was at an all time high/unavailble, they began to do some creative blending with their own wheated distillate, as well as younger sourced bourbon from a few different places.

This is basically how the Contradiction bourbon started.

Store picks were sold as american whiskey I believe and were blends of various whiskey.

 

More recently (2020), we saw a wave of young bourbon start to become mass available again from MGP.  Most of this stuff was 4-5 years old and thus started the current wave of seemingly thousands of different younger MGP brands on the shelf right now.

Smooth amber brought back the Old scout labels and announced they would be continuing to use that label to sell "procured whiskies"

Old scout store pick single barrels returned at 5-6 years old, along with the 99p blended standard shelf bottle of Old Scout bourbon most commonly seen today.

On their website it appears as though they have brought the old 7 year label back as well, but I have not seen any bottles yet.

 

Their own distillate (wheated bourbon) has been getting released since 2014 I think (memory).

First in small releases of 2-3 year aged in 375 half bottles, marketed under the name "yearling"

The first 750ml release was WV only and sold with a green label named "wheated bourbon".  It was 5 years old.

The following year it was released nationally under the "Big Level" label and is 6 years plus.

It doesn't appear that the wheated bourbon is currently being released on its own anymore....just blended into contradiction bourbon.

 

A couple years ago new recipes of house distillate started being released under the Founders Cask Strength label.

There is currently a rye recipe straight bourbon

and a straight rye whiskey.

Both seem to be labeled around 5-6 years.

The rye is quite good IMO.

 

Info about all their current products can be found on their website.  They are pretty straightforward with information, mash bills, etc.

 

In short, they didn't really create the old "majik".  MGP did.

There were so many labels selling that same really good older MGP bourbon from all over the US during that timeframe

(SAOS, High West, Belle Meade, Blaum Bros, Boone County 1833, OKI, Widow Jane 12y, James E Pepper, Barrel Bourbon, etc. -just to name a few).

It was really a matter of just educating yourself and knowing what to buy, but the bourbon was all pretty much the same/similar delicious profile, regardless of who's bottle it came in.  People eventually tracked it all down...

The simple fact of the matter is that it's gone now (or in collectors basements).

The new wave of MGP out there just doesn't seem the same.

Not just in age, but you can tell it has a different profile and will likely age out differently.

Maybe I'll be wrong and it will be incredible again in another 4-5 years.

I guess we'll see.

 

[fosmith]

I've had several SAOS 5yr cask strength store picks that were quite tasty.  They seem to be trending at 6yrs now and I recently got one but haven't opened it yet. 

[meadeweber]

On 4/29/2024 at 2:22 AM, 0895 said:

 

Basically victims of their own success and the boom finally hitting MGP.

For better or worse, they did a really good job of procuring good MGP barrels "back in the day" and successfully sold almost ALL of them prematurely.

Meaning that their plan had originally intended for that whiskey to last until they got their own distillate aged and salable.

So as a cult following for the good MGP stuff quickly developed and really took off (around 2016-2017 IIRC), they sold through it very quickly as hunters scooped them up for basically bargain prices.  The last remaining barrels of 12y+ bourbon and rye were sold periodically through releases at the gift shop with people waiting in line to buy them at much higher prices than they previously retailed for (market correction if you will).

In 2016 Pernod Richard bought the SA distillery.  No idea if this had any effect on their actions or products.

After that well ran dry and the price on MGP aged bourbon was at an all time high/unavailble, they began to do some creative blending with their own wheated distillate, as well as younger sourced bourbon from a few different places.

This is basically how the Contradiction bourbon started.

Store picks were sold as american whiskey I believe and were blends of various whiskey.

 

More recently (2020), we saw a wave of young bourbon start to become mass available again from MGP.  Most of this stuff was 4-5 years old and thus started the current wave of seemingly thousands of different younger MGP brands on the shelf right now.

Smooth amber brought back the Old scout labels and announced they would be continuing to use that label to sell "procured whiskies"

Old scout store pick single barrels returned at 5-6 years old, along with the 99p blended standard shelf bottle of Old Scout bourbon most commonly seen today.

On their website it appears as though they have brought the old 7 year label back as well, but I have not seen any bottles yet.

 

Their own distillate (wheated bourbon) has been getting released since 2014 I think (memory).

First in small releases of 2-3 year aged in 375 half bottles, marketed under the name "yearling"

The first 750ml release was WV only and sold with a green label named "wheated bourbon".  It was 5 years old.

The following year it was released nationally under the "Big Level" label and is 6 years plus.

It doesn't appear that the wheated bourbon is currently being released on its own anymore....just blended into contradiction bourbon.

 

A couple years ago new recipes of house distillate started being released under the Founders Cask Strength label.

There is currently a rye recipe straight bourbon

and a straight rye whiskey.

Both seem to be labeled around 5-6 years.

The rye is quite good IMO.

 

Info about all their current products can be found on their website.  They are pretty straightforward with information, mash bills, etc.

 

In short, they didn't really create the old "majik".  MGP did.

There were so many labels selling that same really good older MGP bourbon from all over the US during that timeframe

(SAOS, High West, Belle Meade, Blaum Bros, Boone County 1833, OKI, Widow Jane 12y, James E Pepper, Barrel Bourbon, etc. -just to name a few).

It was really a matter of just educating yourself and knowing what to buy, but the bourbon was all pretty much the same/similar delicious profile, regardless of who's bottle it came in.  People eventually tracked it all down...

The simple fact of the matter is that it's gone now (or in collectors basements).

The new wave of MGP out there just doesn't seem the same.

Not just in age, but you can tell it has a different profile and will likely age out differently.

Maybe I'll be wrong and it will be incredible again in another 4-5 years.

I guess we'll see.

 

That was a great history review!  Thank you!  Most of what you documented, I remember.  There were a couple things I didn't know or didn't remember.

 

I never tried the "Big Level" label.  If my memory serves, I don't think reviews were very positive.  Anyone had it?  Was it not great?  Is that possibly why they started blending it?

 

Also, your comments on the new MGP are interesting.  I haven't sampled much.  Like you, I enjoyed the MGP from around 2015-2017.  The bourbon was really good and the rye was fantastic!

[PaulO]

One thing I'll say as a compliment to Smooth Ambler - they seem to know how to manage a warehouse, and or the climate there in WV is ideal.  With so many companies sourcing barrels from MGP it's an experiment.  The product may start the same, but doesn't necessarily end the same.

[FasterHorses]

So MGP is primarily using  a different mashbill than they did with the Belle Meade, Saos, Boone, OKi, Blaum?  If that is what youre saying.. does that make sense? Surely MGP or whatever theyre called now (ross & squibb).. is aware of the legendary status of their previous product. 

 

Edited April 30 by FasterHorses

[steven s]

where do those earlyish barrels of smoke wagon uncut unfiltered factor into this?

[0895]

On 4/30/2024 at 11:35 AM, FasterHorses said:

So MGP is primarily using  a different mashbill than they did with the Belle Meade, Saos, Boone, OKi, Blaum?  If that is what youre saying.. does that make sense? Surely MGP or whatever theyre called now (ross & squibb).. is aware of the legendary status of their previous product. 

 

 

No, those were all from the same run back in 2015-16-17.  There were two different mash bills IIRC, a low rye and high rye, with the high being more prevalent.

 

What I'm saying is that the new MGP stuff on the shelf that is 4-7 years old, the rye recipe bourbon, it's not the same.  It's not as good.

Blame it on the grain, distilling process, warehouse location, barrel type/mfg, seasonal temps, dumb luck, them rushing production, whatever.

 

That good old MGP bourbon is gone.  The new stuff just doesn't have that same profile, regardless of mash bill.  Some of it is fine/good, but it's definitely not the same as it used to be.

You might find a hint of the old stuff in Volstead, Gatsby, and even blended into some of the Remus Reserve.

I really liked the Volstead, but I think that was the turning point.  Gatsby was too long in the barrel and came out somewhat bitter and over aged IMO.

[0895]

On 5/4/2024 at 10:17 PM, steven s said:

where do those earlyish barrels of smoke wagon uncut unfiltered factor into this?

 

Good Question.  Those would have been released somewhere around what, 2018 or 19?

The only bottle I ever tried was from 2020.  It had a distinctly different profile to it than most other MGP bourbon.  Almost a bread like profile.  Probably something to do with aging location in the desert, but who knows.

 

I believe Smoke Wagon had some early single barrel store picks that were the old MGP bourbon.

[bassman]

On 4/30/2024 at 8:34 AM, meadeweber said:

That was a great history review!  Thank you!  Most of what you documented, I remember.  There were a couple things I didn't know or didn't remember.

 

I never tried the "Big Level" label.  If my memory serves, I don't think reviews were very positive.  Anyone had it?  Was it not great?  Is that possibly why they started blending it?

 

Also, your comments on the new MGP are interesting.  I haven't sampled much.  Like you, I enjoyed the MGP from around 2015-2017.  The bourbon was really good and the rye was fantastic!

Ed Bleys recent Old Stubborn wheated bourbon says distilled in WV, which I hear most say is SA.   12 yr old pot distilled.   I cracked my bottle of it.  Pretty flavorful, rich and viscous.  

[Kepler]

On 4/30/2024 at 8:34 AM, meadeweber said:

...

I never tried the "Big Level" label.  If my memory serves, I don't think reviews were very positive.  Anyone had it?  Was it not great?  Is that possibly why they started blending it?

...

 

Big Level was universally panned.   I never tried it, but several SB members on here did and told us to avoid that bottle, so I did. 

In my experience very few producers can make wheated bourbons that turn out really well.  Obviously BT and Maker's lead the way.  Some HH wheaters are very good too (as long at they have enough time in the barrel). 

Many try, but fail.  I think part of the problem is they rush the liquid to the market before they age long enough in oak.   Rye-based bourbons don't need more than 4-6 years to taste right;  wheat-based bourbons typically need longer aging (unless it's MM, which somehow tastes great even when young).

 

 

Edited yesterday at 03:39 AM by Kepler

[Kepler]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:22 AM, 0895 said:

 

Basically victims of their own success and the boom finally hitting MGP.

For better or worse, they did a really good job of procuring good MGP barrels "back in the day" and successfully sold almost ALL of them prematurely.

Meaning that their plan had originally intended for that whiskey to last until they got their own distillate aged and salable.

So as a cult following for the good MGP stuff quickly developed and really took off (around 2016-2017 IIRC), they sold through it very quickly as hunters scooped them up for basically bargain prices.  The last remaining barrels of 12y+ bourbon and rye were sold periodically through releases at the gift shop with people waiting in line to buy them at much higher prices than they previously retailed for (market correction if you will).

In 2016 Pernod Richard bought the SA distillery.  No idea if this had any effect on their actions or products.

After that well ran dry and the price on MGP aged bourbon was at an all time high/unavailble, they began to do some creative blending with their own wheated distillate, as well as younger sourced bourbon from a few different places.

This is basically how the Contradiction bourbon started.

Store picks were sold as american whiskey I believe and were blends of various whiskey.

 

More recently (2020), we saw a wave of young bourbon start to become mass available again from MGP.  Most of this stuff was 4-5 years old and thus started the current wave of seemingly thousands of different younger MGP brands on the shelf right now.

Smooth amber brought back the Old scout labels and announced they would be continuing to use that label to sell "procured whiskies"

Old scout store pick single barrels returned at 5-6 years old, along with the 99p blended standard shelf bottle of Old Scout bourbon most commonly seen today.

On their website it appears as though they have brought the old 7 year label back as well, but I have not seen any bottles yet.

 

Their own distillate (wheated bourbon) has been getting released since 2014 I think (memory).

First in small releases of 2-3 year aged in 375 half bottles, marketed under the name "yearling"

The first 750ml release was WV only and sold with a green label named "wheated bourbon".  It was 5 years old.

The following year it was released nationally under the "Big Level" label and is 6 years plus.

It doesn't appear that the wheated bourbon is currently being released on its own anymore....just blended into contradiction bourbon.

 

A couple years ago new recipes of house distillate started being released under the Founders Cask Strength label.

There is currently a rye recipe straight bourbon

and a straight rye whiskey.

Both seem to be labeled around 5-6 years.

The rye is quite good IMO.

 

Info about all their current products can be found on their website.  They are pretty straightforward with information, mash bills, etc.

 

In short, they didn't really create the old "majik".  MGP did.

There were so many labels selling that same really good older MGP bourbon from all over the US during that timeframe

(SAOS, High West, Belle Meade, Blaum Bros, Boone County 1833, OKI, Widow Jane 12y, James E Pepper, Barrel Bourbon, etc. -just to name a few).

It was really a matter of just educating yourself and knowing what to buy, but the bourbon was all pretty much the same/similar delicious profile, regardless of who's bottle it came in.  People eventually tracked it all down...

The simple fact of the matter is that it's gone now (or in collectors basements).

The new wave of MGP out there just doesn't seem the same.

Not just in age, but you can tell it has a different profile and will likely age out differently.

Maybe I'll be wrong and it will be incredible again in another 4-5 years.

I guess we'll see.

 

 

Excellent and very helpful overview on the product.  Thanks

[meadeweber]

On 5/11/2024 at 11:36 PM, Kepler said:

 

(unless it's MM, which somehow tastes great even when young).

 

 

In my opinion, MM is "good".  I've always said that I think it might be "great"  with another couple years on it.