Experimental bourbons you would like to see

[jeff]

What type of "experimental" bourbon would you like to see produced? Maybe a 4 grain mashbill, a 100% corn bourbon, a bourbon aged in exotic oaks or maybe something we haven't thought of yet?

Personally I would be interested in trying a bourbon made with both wheat and rye. I have heard that Woodford Reserve and Buffalo Trace are both aging a 4-grain product right now. I don't know how this will turn out, but it would be interesting to try. I guess I could "gillman" up a batch using existing bottles in my bunker

[Gillman]

Hey that's what (apparently) Corner Creek did.

Gary

P.S. Don't read my last two posts as any shift to brevity.

[jeff]

Gary,

Please elaborate. Are you saying Corner Creek is a mingling of wheat and rye bourbons? I wasn't aware of that.

[Gillman]

Yes, or that is my belief, rather.

Gary

[jeff]

Based on something you've heard/read, or on your opinion of the taste?

[Gillman]

Well, on the label it says, "an exceptional marriage of the finest wheat, rye and corn". So either it is a vatting or a 4-grain, but the former is more likely.

Gary

[jeff]

Sorry Gary, can you tell that I have never picked up a bottle?

Very interesting. I have heard good things about this bottling, but I don't believe I have heard any discussion on the mashbill or the mingling. I'll pick up a bottle this weekend and give it a try.

[Gillman]

Well, it is very good. I like it more now than a few years ago. There was a minty-like taste some years ago that seems lessened now. Label seems unchanged from some years ago so hard to tell the approximate year of the bottling but it was always good, now is even better. Can't say I detect a real difference because of the four grains, though.

Gary

[bluesbassdad]

Jeff,

More opinions on Corner Creek here.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[TNbourbon]

Here's its website:

Corner Creek Bourbon

which states it is a blend of wheat, corn and rye -- "a selection of the distillery's finest barrels". So, apparently, "vatting" at the dumping level.

[gr8erdane]

Personally, I'd like to try a bourbon that uses an older strain of corn more like that which was prevalent in the formative years of bourbon whiskey. There have been so many advances in farming over the past century that I imagine the corn of that time was a lot different than what we consume today. Maybe even a wild maize bourbon if it was possible to gather enough of it.

[jeff]

You might want to check that link Tim.

[cowdery]

which states it is a blend of wheat, corn and rye -- "a selection of the distillery's finest barrels". So, apparently, "vatting" at the dumping level.

There is another possibility. When I spoke to Ted Kraut, who owns the brand, two years ago he said he wanted something with wheat because he had a past association with Old Fitzgerald and W. L. Weller. He confirmed that the label was accurate but when I asked him if it was a four-grain mash bill or a vatting of wheated and rye-recipe bourbons, he didn't know. HE DIDN'T KNOW!!! So what I think is that he bought some eight year old bourbon from somebody, wrote some label copy he thought was about right, and that was that. That's what I think.

[Gillman]

Well, that's interesting. By the way one of my best, and simplest, blendings recently is Corner Creek and Woodford Reserve 50/50 (myabe slightly less Woodford). It is really good. It takes the slight astringency away from the Corner Creek and the big flavor of the Woodford is lightened and extended, with resultant waves of flavor and good drinkability (soft mouth feel, little alcohol burn on the way down). My feeling is Corner Creek is lighter on the rye bourbon than wheat bourbon, and the WR "corrects" that. I didn't add a blending agent, it doesn't need it.

Gary

[TNbourbon]

You might want to check that link Tim.

Oops!

Try it now. I think I've got it.

[sharkman]

I have been a corner creek fan for about 1.5 years now. It is the one I reach for when I want something a little different. I love the seetness and the rye notes I get from it. The palate starts off velvety but doesn't stay that way. This is a nice little bottling that I will never be without on my shelf. It's not carried in my state.I think the last time I bought it was from Sam's Wine and Spirits, they have it for $19.99.

One of the BEST ever $20 bourbons IMO. If you are looking for multi-grain whisky, then try the Forty Creek 3-grain Canadian. It's a good little drink when you want a Canadian whisky. Small grains are malted barley, rye and corn (they call it maize). Prominant on the maize side I think (which makes it very intersting) and the barley is a nice touch and I just flat out love rye. Bourbon still rules, but ya gotta see whats on the other side of the fence from time to time.

Barry

[Gillman]

Well put but this maize thing is a mystery to me. Canadians use the term, "corn" exactly like Americans. We don't use the term "maize" and if you asked 100 people on Yonge Street in Toronto what it meant I doubt one of them could tell you. I think this was put on Forty Creek labels with the export (U.K., rest of EU) market in mind. I am not sure if the term is used on the latest bottlings, I will check.

Gary

[jeff]

From the Corner Creek website:

"Deep amber hue.<font color="red"> Hedonistic sweet wood</font> , smoke and charred barrel aromas. A very smooth attack leads to a medium-bodied palate. Refined, supple, flavorful finish. Rounded and elegant, this is a very refined style."

Hedonistic sweet wood? Sign me up!

[Gillman]

Accurate description of the current bottling.

Gary

[sharkman]

From the Corner Creek website:

"Deep amber hue.<font color="red"> Hedonistic sweet wood</font> , smoke and charred barrel aromas. A very smooth attack leads to a medium-bodied palate. Refined, supple, flavorful finish. Rounded and elegant, this is a very refined style."

Hedonistic sweet wood? Sign me up!

Hell, save me a seat!

Barry

[TNbourbon]

Interesting that Corner Creek came up so recently here -- today I bought the first bottle I've ever seen in Middle Tennessee. I almost looked right past it because the bottle/label are so similar to wine. The storekeeper said it had been on the shelf a long time, and didn't know if it's still distributed here. I kinda doubt it, or somebody else would have it.

[cowdery]

It wouldn't be bourbon, by definition, but I would like to try a straight wheat whiskey. As much as I like wheated bourbon, I think a straight wheat whiskey would be dandy. They must have been made at one time, otherwise why would the regs even mention them? (They don't, for example, mention rice whiskey.) You could still have rye involved, either in lieu of corn or in a four-grain mash bill.

I have said before that I think a bourbon mash whiskey long-aged in used cooperage, like a scotch, might be interesting. Again, it wouldn't by definition be bourbon, but that's something I'd like to see. When I had occassion once to try some 20-25 year old single malts side by side with their 10-12 year old expressions, I was impressed by how the older versions were more subtle and refined, yet also more crystalline. I'm not sure what that means, but it's the word that popped into my head.

[TNbourbon]

Gary,

Please elaborate. Are you saying Corner Creek is a mingling of wheat and rye bourbons? I wasn't aware of that.

Alas, I fear whatever is the case, it's now was, not is. On the KY Secretary of State website, the name Corner Creek is listed as 'inactive', expiring in 2003. And, my attempt to email the marketer from the brand's website bounced back to me undeliverable.

[chasking]

I would like to try a whiskey made from all (or at least a substantial percentage) malted corn. I have heard that corn is hard to malt, but from some books on moonshining I've read, it sounds like at one time malted corn was commonly used as at least the malt component of the whiskey mashbill back in the farmer/distiller days. So, it's not impossible, at least on a small scale.

Malted rye and unmalted rye produce very different flavors when used in whiskey, as do malted and unmalted barley. It would be interesting to see the effect malting has on the flavor of corn.

I'm not sure whether the resulting spirit could be called bourbon or not. The regs don't distinguish between malted and unmalted corn, as they do with other grains.

Here's a not entirely hypothetical question: if a distillery offered the ability to have a small amount of whiskey (maybe even a single barrel or cask) distilled from a mashbill of your specification, also granting you some level of control over other easily-controlled variables in the process, would you order any?

"How much would it cost?" is the obvious question. Unknown, but I know that a prominent distillery in Scotland is selling newly-distilled whisky by the barrel for 775 pounds, which at present exchange rates comes to a little under $1,500.00 for 50 gallons of whiskey into the barrel. (Angels' share will reduce that by some amount, depending on when bottled.) That's pre-tax, but includes storage while it ages. Of course, that's a Scotch distillery, so presumably it would be rather less expensive than that. And, that's for a full barrel; smaller casks would be an option.

What would you order? At one end of the spectrum, you could of course get your own personally tweaked bourbon mashbill---including a four-grain bourbon. But at the other end of the spectrum, if you have a hankerin' to try an oat, rice and malted wheat whiskey, that possible too.

This is at present an academic exercise, but the idea of a micro-distillery has planted itself in my brain, so this may also count as a feasibility study/market research.

Chuck King

[Gillman]

I would stipulate for whiskey made from 80% unmalted rye and 20% barley malt. I believe this would produce the best, and most historical, Pennsylvania-style rye whiskey. This is the mashbill given in Byrn's classic Practical Distiller from the 1870's. Take her off at 100 proof, barrel her at ditto, use heavy-charred oak barrels made from wood seasoned outdoors for 5 years (and preferably from very old trees), and age in a wooden or iron-clad warehouse on a hill side where the winds blow. That whiskey would sing on exit from the ricks, take it from me.

Gary

P.S. I realise my recipe above is not for a bourbon but since you suggested experimentation I felt a straight rye fell well within the bounds.