Great Bourbons from Commonwealth Distilling Co.

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Recently I recieved a telephone call from Julian Van Winkle asking me to taste some bourbons that he was bottling for the Japanese market and to write some tasting notes that would be placed on the labels. The finished product has been bottled and Julian was kind enough to give me a bottle of each so I thought I would share my notes with you as I taste them again.

The first is the Society of Bourbon Connoiseurs Cask Proof 112.1 proof, 20 year old Barreled in December 1980 and Bottled in March 2001, Batch No. 80-045.

Color: A very dark and rich amber.

Nose: Caramel and oak with a touch of honey and vanilla with a hint of mint. Very complex.

Taste: A lot of caramel with a little sweet corn and oak. No alcohol burn at all and smooth to the end.

Finish: Dry yet with a caramel sweetness that lingers just long enough to make you want to take another drink.

This is a very good bourbon that is a wheat recipe. It is as good as anything else I have tasted in years and reminds me of the new 20 YO Pappy. This is a bourbon worth buying at a premium price.

The second bourbon is also the Society of Bourbon Connoiseurs Cask Proof, 108.4 proof, Barreled in December 1980 and Bottled in March 2001, Batch No. 80-040.

Color: A dark amber color.

Nose: Caramel and vanilla with a hint of oak and fine leather.

Taste: Caramel and vanilla with a hint of nuttiness that comes from the wheat. There is a corn sweetness on the side of the mouth that is out of this world. Very smooth with no alcohol burn at all.

Finish: Sweet caramel with a hint of oak that just goes on forever.

This is the second best bourbon I have ever drank and I am forever in Julian's debt just for the honor of getting to drink some of this fine bourbon. If I lived in Japan I would buy every bottle I could find and then beg for more. If Linn was to drink a bottle of this bourbon he would be running naked through the woods praising God for sharing this wonderful nectar with us mere mortals.

Mike Veach

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

<font color=red> SHOOOO WHEEEEE DOGGIES!!!</font color=red>

Since it's a wheater and distilled in 1980 we know that it is either Maker's Mark or UD's Weller whiskey. Which do you think it is Mike?

At any rate I am always happy to drink bourbon and run necked through the woods.

Why do wheaters age so well? Are these from more slowly maturing barrels?

A twenty year old rye recipe would be undrinkable. A good example is the 23 year old Pappy. If it were not for Maker's Mark this would easily be the worst bourbon on the planet.

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Chuck,

I took these two bourbons to Cincinatti with me when I visited John and Linda. We were joined by Marvin and Evelyn for a night of tasting. Linda agreed with me that the 108 proof bottling was the best but the others prefered the the 112 proof bottling. On an interesting side note, the next night I reduced the 112 proof bourbon with water and John could not tell the difference between it and Henry Clay Rare Bourbon. Both bourbons are excellent products that make me want to go to Japan to buy some bourbon.

Mike Veach

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Julian,

Would the difference between 108 and 112 proof be mainly a matter of how it came out of two individual barrels, or the bottler's decision to reduce one a little bit more than the other? Were both of these samples bottled from the same batch, which was originally 112 or higher? Also, are detailed records kept and made available to you when you purchase stock? If so, as a confirmation (or maybe not!) of Mike's position about high- vs low-proof distilling, what proof did this wonderful stuff come off the still at?

Signed,

Nosey in 'Nnati

=John=

http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[jvanwinkle]

Dear Nosey:

Man, you probably want to know Pappy's underwear size too!

The two bottlings Mike wrote about & you tasted were from different barrel distillation dates. But both barrels were filled within days of each other. There was a slight difference in flavor from both batches, but not much. The real difference in the 2 bottlings comes from how much I reduced the whiskey from barrel proof to bottling proof. The customer in Japan wanted something as close to barrel proof as possible, so that's what I did. I think one of the resons this whiskey is so good is because of the high proof. Sometimes when you add more water at bottling proof, it tends to make the whiskey less smooth. But it can vary from barrel to barrel. I think this is determined by where in the warehouse the barrel is stored, a cool floor, or stored upstairs. This is why my 10-year and 15 year 107 proof Old Rips most of the time are considered smooth for a high proof product. Even smoother than my 10-year 90 proof. The additional; added water makes the whiskey a bit harsher.

As far as distilling info when I buy the barrels, I have no records of that. Only the words of the particlular distiller. I do know that this whsikley had a low entry proof. In the case of this 20-year bourbon, Woody Wilson, who worked for my Dad, passed away this last winter. Too bad. I had a lot of questions for him.

Julian

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

I talked to Julian Van Winkle today and he has promised to give a couple of bottles of this bourbon to the Master Distiller's Auction this year. If you want to try this excellent bourbon bring your check book because I may be bidding on these bottles if no one else does. They are worth every penny you will pay if you like an excellent wheated bourbon. (Sorry Linn, I guess this leaves you out.)

Mike Veach

[vasshopper]

Hi Mike

I'll bring my checkbook if i can get off work to make it to the festival. there is nothing better than excellent aged WHEATED BOURBONS!!!! Thank you JULIAN! life is good--den

[Ken Weber]

Linn,

I just stumbled onto this post. I don't know, maybe I have been on another planet for the last six months! Anyway, your comment about the wheat bourbon being made by Maker's or UD fails to take into account that other distilleries (one of which I am very familiar with) were making wheated bourbon for UD and others. Some of the bourbon used in our Weller 19 year old was purchased from UD. These barrels were not only produced by us, they were also stored in our aging warehouses for the last two decades.

Ken

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Ken, my good man the truth comes out at last!

Now can you tell us if A. Smith Bowman buys their low wine wheated whiskey from Buffalo Trace?

I'll pester you some more in person come September!

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Linn,

Before you get too excited go back and look at Ken's first post - He tells us then that he is a marketing man and everything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. This is one of those cases. He implies, but does not say that Schenley at Ancient Age (and that is the distillery as it was known in 1980) made wheat recipe bourbon for W. L. Weller. This is not the case. My proof is Ed Foote who took over as Master Distiller in 1983. He is quite familiar with the whiskey in the warehouses when he took over. To understand how impossible it is for AA to have made wheat recipe bourbon for Old Fitzgerald (as Stitzel-Weller was know in 1980) we need to have a little history lesson.

We will start in 1970 when the Stitzel-Weller distillery was partly owned by the Van Winkle family. Tghey made one recipe for their bourbon and it was a wheat recipe. They put 4 YO 90 proof in Cabin Still, 5 YO 90 proof in Rebel Yell, and 5 YO 86 proof in Old Fitzgerald Prime, 6 YO in Old Fitzgerald Bottled in Bond, 7 YO in W.L. Weller Special Reserve and Antique, and 8 YO 90 W.L. Weller 1849 (later changed to Old Fitzgerald 1849). Older bourbons were bottled at 8,10,12 and 15 YO VSOF or VXOF. In 1972 the distillery was sold to Norton-Simon who placed it with Somerset Imports. Now remember the Van Winkles were making whiskey for products that would not be sold until at least 1976 and as late as 1980 when they sold the distillery.

Norton-Simon went on to buy the Canada Dry distillery in Nicholasville, Ky. and closed it down, shipped all of their whiskey to Old Fitzgerald (one of the first changes the new management made was to change the name of the distillery, naming it after their largest brand). This whiskey was god awful ( I sampled some and still shiver at the thought) but they insisted that it be put into Cabin Still. This meant all of the wheat recipe allowed for Cabin Still was suddenly excess bourbon. To make matters worst, this piss poor bourbon ruined the sales of Cabin Still so that even when they went back to the wheat bourbon, sales were small and there was still a lot of extra wheat recipe bourbon. This means that by 1980 they not only were not buying bourbon from Schenley, but were running below capacity.

Now if Schenley was making a wheat recipe in 1980, they were doing so on their own. This is quite possible. Maybe they were thinking about a brand to compete against Maker's Mark or W.L. Weller in Texas. This is about the time that Weller came out with their "Whisper of Wheat" campaign which is the first time the wheat recipe became public. The Van Winkles always kept it as a trade secret sharing it only with Bill Samuels Sr. If this was Schenley then it is possible that Buffalo Trace bought it back from U.D. Remember, Ancient Age went independent of Schenley in 1983 but Schenley continued to own a lot of whiskey in their warehouse.

For the record it was 1984 when DLC bought Somerset Imports and Guiness bought DLC in 1987, forming U.D. U.D. bought Schenley later in 1987.

So Linn, the moral of this story is that the whiskey I have from Julian is Old Fitzgerald/Stitzel-Weller bourbon. Where the 19 YO Weller comes from I won't say, but remember your grain of salt.

Mike Veach

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

OK Mike, let me get this straight. You're saying that Ken is a lier, and that the distillery now known as Buffalo Trace never produced wheated bourbons for Weller.

That doesn't answer my question. "Who distills the low wine wheated whiskey for A. Smith Bowman?"

Answer that if you please sir, or have I "Stumped The Veach"?

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Linn,

I never called Ken a Liar. I do say he is a Brand Manager telling people what he thinks will sell the most bourbon. He never said that the whiskey was made for Weller, he just implied it. Don't get me wrong, Ken was very up front when he joined the group about being in marketing and that we needed to take everything he writes with a grain of salt. Ken does a fine job as a Brand Manager and you only have to look at all of the awards that have been won by Buffalo Trace in the last year to realize this fact, but he was feeding a line of marketing with this post and I called him on it, mostly because some people might have taken silence on the matter as proof of the complete truth of his statements and they were also associated with Julian's Bourbons. I would not like it if people thought Ancient Age (as it was known in 1980) made these fine bourbons from Old Rip Van Winkle.

Ken was towing the company line in this case and I can respect that, but I do want the right to disagree with something that I know is not right.

Mike Veach

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Sure thing Mike! I'm glad you're here and have the knowledge to let us know when to put on our waders when the marketing gets deep.

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[Ken Weber]

Folks,

I just received an e-mail saying that I had a private post. After reading it, I did not know to what the message refered. Upon being directed to the posts above, I must say that I have stirred up a hornets nest. I would like to set the record straight.

This distillery has in fact made a wheated recipe bourbon for several years. Was it the Weller recipe, I honestly don't know. Some of these barrels were in fact sold to UD and some were warehoused here at Buffalo Trace and some were sent to Louisville.

One of the things that I have tried very hard to do is to keep marketing out of the discussions. As a matter of fact, I have gone the other way and actually mentioned some things that were obviously marketing ploys designed to fool people. The one thing that I learned when I started working at Buffalo Trace is that if you produce a high quality product, you don't have to tell marketing lies to convince other people how good you are. Everything that I have ever said is the truth, as I know it. Has everything I said been correct? While I am not as expert as several members of this board, I have tried to be as upfront and honest as possible.

One final comment, actually two. I have tasted Julian's products and they are all outstanding. If anyone inferred that we made ANY of his whiskey, I want to dispel that immediately! We have made millions of barrels of whiskey, most of which were bottled here for our products. We did distill and sell whiskey to others and I have no idea where it all ended up. I can say that I have no knowledge of any of our whiskies ever being sold to Julian, either directly or indirectly! I also want Linn to know that we did not sell the wheated bourbon in his post.

Finally, now having read the entire thread, and having met Mike, I must say that I am disappointed in his low opinion of me and my motives.

Ken

[kitzg]

Hi, guys. I told myself and my wife I'd stay out of this. So now you can question my sanity and my ability to keep promises to myself.

I shall only point out what I've observed as a brand marketer for over 20 years and

what I now teach. there are good people and bad people in the world. I just saw a piece of reporting on TV last night that there are 40,000 deaths per that alledgedly are at the hands of physicians making errors. I am aware of a major published study that shows 1 in 5 patients in critical care in one of the nation's best hospitals were wrongly diagnosed. I am also aware that some physicians claim to be able to do a procedure after attending a weekend seminar while others spend many years of their life learning at the hands of great doctors before attempting the same procedure. What's my point?

marketing is no different. There are good folks and folks who want to mislead.

I always tried to tell the truth and be associated with great products.

I don't know Ken well (actually never met him/you) but I appreciate the fact that he has shared openly in this forum. Ken's company is involved in very innovative work and he's been kind to keep us on the inner circle. That should sell more bourbon -- and that is what business is all about. I also greatly appreciate Mike, Ken, and others taking the time to enlighten the rest of us.

I suspect from reading threads here that there were and are no bad intentions. I also suspect that it is really hard to know where every barrel ended up unless someone has tracked that particular barrel.

So...thanks to all for sharing. Sorry to see any misunderstood phrases. But we're all here for a great purpose to better understand a product we all enjoy.

And...I just wrote this quickly in the middle of other important work so if it makes no sense, forgive me and move on

Greg

[cowdery]

I'll wade into this too. If you read what everyone is saying, they aren't necessarily conflicting. As Ken noted, the distillery now known as Buffalo Trace has done contract distilling in the past. The Stitzel-Weller Distillery was closed in 1992, but the new Bernheim Distillery which opened that same year has never operated to anyone's complete satisfaction (ask Parker Beam). Therefore, it is certainly reasonable that UD may have needed to acquire some bourbon at some point, and certainly wheated bourbon would have been the hardest to find. If BT had some and it was suitable, UD wouldn't have hesitated to buy it. Obviously, I'm talking about whiskey made within the last 10 years, not something that could be 18-year-old Weller.

Here is what I know. BT is a big distillery. in the past, to set up and run a batch of wheat bourbon there would have been a big deal. Since they didn't sell any wheated products, there seems to be little reason for them to go to that trouble. My sense is that they have made some modifications in recent years to enable them to make different formulas more readily, but that was not the case 20 years ago or even 10. In fact, in 1992 I asked Elmer Lee point blank if they made more than one bourbon formula (i.e., used more than one bourbon mash bill) there and he said no. I asked Parker Beam at Heaven Hill the same question and got the same answer. (Note that "bourbon" is specified. Both made other spirits, e.g., rye, but not other bourbons.) At that time, the only distillery I knew of that was equipped to easily make different mash bills was Early Times. I don't think they were doing so at the time, but their computerized operation would have made it relatively easy. The new Bernheim plant has the same kind of equipment, but as I said, no one has ever been happy with that distillery's output. Parker and Craig are still fine-tuning it.

As for who makes A. Smith Bowman's low wines, I would be willing to bet it's Heaven Hill at Bernheim. As for who made what is being sold now as 18-year-old Weller, I would bet on Stitzel-Weller as the source. While I won't say it's impossible that BT made some wheated bourbon in the late 70s or early 80s, I consider it highly unlikely. The only other distillery making wheated bourbon at that time was Maker's Mark and they have never been known to sell bulk whiskey.

Certainly 18-20 years ago there were many more distilleries operating than there are today, but especially with the technology of that time, switching from your normal production to make a different formula would have been a big deal. You wouldn't do it as an experiment or just for the heck of it. You would only do it on behalf of a customer. As Mike has correctly pointed out, at that time Stitzel-Weller, like most distilleries, was drowning in whiskey because of declining sales. They wouldn't have had any need to commission any from anyone else.

I am not questioning anyone's veracity and I too am a marketing person, who resents any implication that "marketing person" is synonymous with "liar." I will say this. Anyone inside a company making any whiskey product should be able to easily identify the source of that whiskey, assuming it is still in the barrel, because the maker will be clearly identified on the barrel head.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://cowdery.home.netcom.com>--Chuck Cowdery</A>

[cowdery]

I just read Ken's post again (after I wrote mine). His statement is pretty clear. (I also note that I misidentified the Weller as 18, not 19 years old.) As I said in my other post, it is easy enough to determine where something was made by looking at the barrel head and if Ken says BT made a batch of wheated bourbon in 1981 or thereabouts, I don't see any reason to doubt him. That doesn't contradict anything I said or, really, anything Mike said either. Many of the distilleries were going dark for long periods of time during that era. Perhaps Stitzel was dark but needed a certain amount of wheated bourbon for their future projections and it was more cost-effective to commission BT (whatever the name was then) to make it rather than make it themselves.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://cowdery.home.netcom.com>--Chuck Cowdery</A>

[jvanwinkle]

Gee Mike,

Just think. If I hadn't given you that bottle of old wheated whiskey months ago, we wouldn't be having all this fun reading these posts!!

As far as what I am now selling in my "Van Winkle" bourbon bottles, Ken is correct in that BT Distillery has never produced any whiskkey for me. It is no secret I don't think that all the Van Winkle bourbon I am now selling was made to my grandfather's formula at Stitzel-Weller.

Julian

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Ken,

I did not say that I have a low opinion of you. I did say that you are doing a great job as brand manager at Buffalo Trace and have the awards to show for it. I do think that there was some marketing in that post, but that is my opinion and if other say otherwise they have the right to their opinions as well. If I offend you, then I am sorry, but I stand by my history of the time.

Now to answer some of the issues Chuck mentioned in his post, I will say that it is possible for Ancient Age to have made additional formulas. During the 1950's it was common for Schenley to use the Stagg/Ancient Age/Blanton distillery to make experimental products. I do believe that most of the testing of George Dickel's formula was done in Frankfort. This testing was being done as they rebuilt the distillery on Tennessee.

Yes there was (and maybe still is if Buffalo Trace did not buy it all) some U.D. whiskey in Frankfort. While Bernheim was being remodeled and rebuilt the rye recipe was made by Early Times and Leestown. Barton also was making whiskey for them as well. If there was wheat recipe made other than Stitzel-Weller, then I am not aware of it, but it is possible. The early 1990's is when the people at U.D. was predicting Rebel Yell and I W Harper to be million case products by 1999. That is why there is such a glut of whiskey in their warehouses. There could be some wheat bourbon at Buffalo Trace made for U.D., but it would be 10 year old and not 20.

Mike Veach

[bourbonmed]

Hi gang, great news.

Bumping up this review for good reason. Mike Veach will be bringing a bottle of this amazing 20y cask proof export for us to taste at the L&G/BT tour. Stay tuned...more tasting surprises to come!

Cheers,

Omar