Dougdogs' Whiskey Rebarreling...

[dougdog]

This post is to facilitate an exchange of knowledge and theory. It is an experiment from which to learn. I'm starting off simple at first for gathering a "baseline" of information to launch other variations in future projects.

My beginning goal, stated simply, is to "condition" the barrel(s) to allow for an introduction of selected, premium, younger whiskies to mature for lengthy periods of time...hopefully, making them better and/or more interesting. After the barrels are "done" aging Bourbon, possibly 10-20 years from now, I intend to further age SMSW. (Single Malt Scotch whisky) Using what I have learned here to hopefully make that successful too.

Thanks to all who have posted information in various places here on this site that has led up to this current place in time.

The barrels, 3 gallon and 5 gallons, were brought over to the "Study Group" last evening by Roger. (11-19-05)(Thanks Roger!) Both barrels are heavy char #3. (One can hear the bits of charcoal that are loose inside when the barrels are rolled or shaken.)

I intend to fill the first barrel today. I'm going to start with the small one. I'm using Ancient Age for two main reasons. First, it is relatively inexpensive. (14.99 per 1.75 liters) Second, I believe that this particular whiskey will do rather well with additional ageing.

After evaluating the time frames and tasting results when this AA is finally removed, the barrel will be filled again for round two. More will be known about what kind of whiskies will be chosen for the second fill after evaluating the results of taste and time from the first fill. There could be a third and final fill for the long haul, but that won't be considered to heavily at this point in time until more is known.

The "conditioning" mentioned above, is to now use inexpensive bourbon to prepare the barrel for more select bourbon, long term aging. After the "final" bourbon is matured, 10-20 years from now, additional conditioning could be done to prepare the cask for SMSW. The types of consideration for influencing the barrel might come from rums, wines, ports, Sherries or other similar products...time will tell.

Please post your comments or suggestions...I'd like to know what you think!

Best regards, dougdog

[dougdog]

The barrel is full,it consumed the better part of (6) 1.75 liter plastic bottles. When replacing the bung, I could see the charcoal floating in the whiskey....

I'll keep in touch...best regards, dougdog

[RedVette]

The reason genetecists use fruitflies to test theories is because their life cycle is measured in days. Your experiment is measured in years. I think your grandkids will really enjoy what you learned.

The AA is a good call, as opposed to Old Crow or Kessler etc.

The East Bay is a rather temperate sort of place (I grew up down the street), do you think you have enough winter or enough summer to move the Bourbon through the char? I'm thinking that you just might end up with "smoked" AA.

Did I mention that I think this is really cool?

[kbuzbee]

Doug, that is awsomely cool. You're a good month ahead of me I like the idea of using a conditioning run first. I'm betting even the 2nd and third fillings will be quicker than you think based on the size of the barrel. Maybe 10 months and 2 years?? Are you doing regular sampling to track it's progress?? How frequently??

Doug! Doug! Doug! Doug! Doug! Doug! Doug! Doug! Doug! Doug!

Ken

[TNbourbon]

...I'm thinking that you just might end up with "smoked" AA...

AAa?

[barturtle]

Cool! can't wait to see how this works out!

Looks like you saved a sample to try it against, good.

Have you considered how you're going to filter it when you dump it? or if you will?

Have you considered how often you'll weigh the barrel to see how long it takes before you get losses other than what the barrel absorbs?

Looks good, where is it going to be stored again? Can we get some pics of its new home?

Though this might seem to be a odd thought, it might be interesting to get one of the digital weather stations that will give a daily average temp and keep track of it. It might be going overboard, but then again some would say that rebarreling your own whiskey is as well

[JeffRenner]

The barrel is full,it consumed the better part of (6) 1.75 liter plastic bottles.

No leaks, then? When I filled an oak barrel with five gallons of (hard) cider many (25?) years ago, I had to soak it first in water to swell the staves. It leaked like a sieve for several days.

Of course, we never hear of this problem with whiskey barrels, so maybe they (and yours) haven't had time to dry out, as mine evidently had.

In no time at all, I had cider that was overwhelmingly oaky. Served it all up at a party. I rinsed it out well and still have it. I doubt that I could get it sweet enough to put anything in it that would be consumed, but who knows?

Jeff

[dougdog]

Rob,

Having grown up in San Jose and spent most of my life in the Bay Area I find my East Bay location quite different weather wise compared to that of the South Bay/San Jose. Some of my observations seem, at times, quite counterintuitive. I've lived in my current home for 6 plus years now and paying close attention to the weather due to my interest in Bonsai (See dugzbonsai.com) it is easy for me to believe that there is sufficient temperature swing to do the job. Compound that with the extra "gain" in the attic and I think my barrel(s) will do just fine.

The record low in my back yard was three years ago at 21 degrees F. The record high has been 104. It is not unusual for the cold snaps to be 5-10 days long and the heat waves to be two to three weeks. Generally speaking, at summer time, it is usually warmer in San Jose than here and usually colder here than San Jose at the same time in winter.

One would think that the close proximity to the San Francisco Bay would moderate those temperatures more, but it just doesn't seem to work that way when I look at the thermometer.

I am going to get a thermometer that has the tell-tales for my attic so I can monitor the temperature swings and compare with those outside.

I wonder what the annual range is inside the warehouses in Kentucky?

[dougdog]

Ken,

You wrote:

Are you doing regular sampling to track its progress?? How frequently??

My thought right now is to draw 50mls at one week intervals for the first 8 weeks and evaluate them at the one month intervals...oddly enough this will happen at the third Saturday "Study Groups"...what a coincidence!

I intend to measure and record the amount lost to evaporation and barrel absorption and replace with new AA after the weekly/monthly sample has been drawn...oh yea... and replace what we, the "study groupers", sample as well!

If you would like, I'd be glad to post the findings here.

Best regards, dougdog!

[dougdog]

Jeff,

No leaks in this barrel. Thank goodness!

I did overfill it slightly and the picture shows some moisture in the cracks and around the metal bands.

I did go around the barrel with a hammer and a big cold chisel to tighten up a few of the intermediated bands, which had come loose in transportation. (One had slipped off when handling it this morning prior to filling.)

A question back at you...Why would previously barreling cider prohibit you from re-barreling whiskey?

Best regards, dougdog

[JeffRenner]

Why would previously barreling cider prohibit you from re-barreling whiskey?

Sorry for not having been clear - it's nothing in the cider itself, but rather that the barrel has sat empty and dry all these years. Wine makers store empty barrels with sulfited water in them to keep the staves swollen and to discourage microbial growth. And they traditionally "sweeten" them before refilling by burning a sulfur candle in them, filling them with SO2 fumes.

So I suspect that my barrel may be musty. Obviously nothing would grow in it if the alcohol level is sufficiently high, but it might taint the contents.

I have been considering, however, checking it out and if it's clean, filling it with fresh make white dog from a 50% rye malt, 30% unmalted rye, and 20% distillers barley malt. I believe I might find connections for such a spirit. (I discovered in a test mash that Briess Malting Co.'s rye malt, unlike barley malt, lacks sufficient enzymes to convert even its own starch, so additional enzymes must be added from barley malt. Apparently, Anchor Distilling gets a higher enzyme rye malt.)

Jeff

[JeffRenner]

I intend to measure and record the amount lost to evaporation and barrel absorption and replace with new AA after the weekly/monthly sample has been drawn...oh yea... and replace what we, the "study groupers", sample as well!

This sounds like a great project!

Some further thoughts on this. One of my ongoing homebrew projects has been an Old Ale "Solera." This is a five gallon stainless steel Pepsi keg in which I have kept a strong, "Old Ale" (that's a style of strong ale) since 1994. Every couple of years, I top it up. After about three years, it serendiptously turned nicely tart (see my full explanation in my post on Flanders ales earlier).

Some homebrewers in Franklin, TN, were inspired by this to step it up in scale by brewing 11 five-gallon batches of barleywine and storing it in a used bourbon barrel. Their intent is to draw it down as needed and top it up occasionally. However, they hadn't counted on the staves on the top of the barrel drying out, and it leaked when they refilled it (see their report to Homebrw Digest).

If you keep your barrel full, this shouldn't be a problem, but we do hear of whiskey being rebarrelled. I wonder if this is a problem with them. And I wonder why it doesn't seem to be a problem when bourbon barrels are refilled with beer at microbreweries (as is increasingly being done with stouts and barleywine). Obviously, the top staves in a well aged barrel of bourbon will be dry. (The Tennessee homebrewers kept their barrel wrapped in wet blankets until they filled it).

Jeff

[dougdog]

Jeff, you have posted some valuable information, Thanks!

In other threads, I had mentioned the idea of a "solera" or "living barrel" idea. (Loch-Fyne Whiskies in Scotland has a in-house cask program, pseudo-solera thing going on)

I think this method would have its advantages when using small barrels in a project like this. First the "re-topping" would keep the barrel from leaking and also allow for influencing the contents for corrective measures or directive measures. One aspect being a defensive tool, the latter being more offensive in nature. Directive additions would be done to influence the contents to specific preferences of taste. IE, more rye flavor, wheat flavor, sweeter, dryer, higher proof, lower proof etc...What ever the mood.

Most of this is just thought process for the future; at this point in time the only work is to break-in this little barrel and build the "baseline" of information for future expansion of ideas.

[brian12069]

I want to get a barrel now!

[Ken Weber]

Doug,

I have been reading this thread with some amusement. What would happen if you had access to aging whiskey still in the barrel (like in an aging warehouse) and emptied it after about 4 - 5 years and then put the un-processed bourbon into a new charred barrel and let it age another 4 - 5 years? First of all the bourbon will not be 8 - 10 years old, but rather 4 - 5 years old. However, it will be very "rich."

Do you recall me talking about having 1500 experimental barrels in our warehouse? Well........

Ken

[barturtle]

What would happen if you had access to aging whiskey still in the barrel (like in an aging warehouse)

Hey! No fair! Cheater!

Do you recall me talking about having 1500 experimental barrels in our warehouse? Well........

Will work for experimental whiskey

[JeffRenner]

What would happen if you had access to aging whiskey still in the barrel (like in an aging warehouse) and emptied it after about 4 - 5 years and then put the un-processed bourbon into a new charred barrel and let it age another 4 - 5 years? First of all the bourbon will not be 8 - 10 years old, but rather 4 - 5 years old. However, it will be very "rich."

Do you recall me talking about having 1500 experimental barrels in our warehouse? Well........

What a tease!

So you are saying that the bourbon, even though it had been in two barrels for a total of 8 - 10 years, would be considered only as old as the time it spent in its more recent barrelling? That seems very strange.

I certainly can see that it would have double the barrel flavors, or, as you say, be very rich. As one who at least thinks that he appreciates the flavor of the distillate as well as barrel flavors, I'm not sure how I'd feel about this. It seems that the flavor of the distillate itself would be overwhelmed.

I hope I get to find out.

Jeff

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

Hi Ken,

I have been wondering why none of the distilleries have tried rebarreling bourbon in a second new charred oak barrel, now I think at least one of them has! I look forward to this being released and/or sampling a barrel if/when I get to Kentucky. (That is a hint...) (I plan on bringing a 1.75 liter "flask"...)

Did I understand correctly that once a bourbon leaves its original barrel it can't legally get any older?

Ed

[barturtle]

So you are saying that the bourbon, even though it had been in two barrels for a total of 8 - 10 years, would be considered only as old as the time it spent in its more recent barrelling? That seems very strange

I think he's actually saying that it would be considered as old as its original or first barreling age.

[JeffRenner]

I think he's actually saying that it would be considered as old as its original or first barreling age.

I suspect you are right. But it still seems strange. What if it spent four years in the first barrel and six years in its second barrel. Why couldn't you call it six year old whiskey? Or even more sensibly, ten year old? You have a spirit, properly mashed and distilled, stored in new, charred oak barrels and aged for six years. I don't see anything in the regs that says it has to be white dog that is placed into the barrels. Seems common sense.

I suppose BT has lawyers on this, or perhaps there is a precedent, but I think it could/should be as old as the total time it spent in new, charred oak barrels, even if this is more than one barrel.

This legal opinion is offered for the same fee as your

Will work for experimental whiskey

Jeff

[dougdog]

Hey Ken, I do recall all the conversation we had in the rick-house that day...

Especially the parts about experimental barrels and discussion about Cream of Kentucky...somehow, your post here doesn't surprise me...rather it lends confirmation that I'm heading in the right direction....and I'm with Ed...only difference is that I'm gonna ask Randy to loan me his new found 5 gallon "flask" for my little sample bottle....LOL

Can you give a hint as to when the experiment re-barreling in your wharehouse will be ready for market?

Ken...you da man...BT is da place!!!

See ya at the sampler...best regards, dougdog

[dougdog]

Hi Timothy

You wrote:

Have you considered how you're going to filter it when you dump it? or if you will?

Have you considered how often you'll weigh the barrel to see how long it takes before you get losses other than what the barrel absorbs?

Looks good, where is it going to be stored again? Can we get some pics of its new home?

I'm considering two ideas at this point in time, first is to just run it through a coffee filter to remove all the big chunks.

Second is to take some of the Mesquite charcoal that I use in my BBQ, crush it, and run some of the bourbon through it as in "Charcoal Filtered"

I'll save the "used" charcoal for the next time I grill a BBQ pork tenderloin roast... (Jeff, thanks again for that good recipe)

The barrel will be checked weekly for the first 8 weeks, evaluated and probably be checked monthly after stabilization has been established. Samples being consumed...I mean "TESTED" at each "Study Group"!

It will be stored in my attic where more drastic temperature swing are prevalent...I'll take pictures and post them when the barrel is placed. Right now I'm trying to get some time to stop at the store and get a thermometer with tell-tales to mount next to the barrel. Right now the barrel is sitting in the bonsai studio at the same place where the photo was taken. It gets some late afternoon sun there at this time of year. I'm planning to place it in the attic on Saturday the 26th.

Your thought about my thoughts?

Best, dougdog

[Gillman]

Why doesn't the bourbon age for the total number of years in your example? I see what you mean in the legal sense but not in the practical sense, i.e., for the purpose of Doug's experiments. The only real difference from regular aging is he transferred the AA into a new barrel, which means more wood gums will get in (the richness you refer to) than if the AA had continued to be held in the original barrels. That is why, plus the factor of the small barrel size, that people are advising and Doug has accepted that his AA will reach optimum condition (likely) in months not years but apart from that I don't see why one wouldn't count the age of his bourbon when it went into his barrels when (at the end) computing the final age.

Gary

[Gillman]

Doug I know the samples you will remove are small but I advise if possible to hold back some from each successive tasting so later you see whether there is any change between the samples. Only a side-by-side will really tell you I think..

Also, just a suggestion, but you may want to consider not doing the top-up. To me that crosses over into another area, the "solera" idea which is a good one but will change the idea of the continued aging of the AA you first put in there. Solera whiskey can be good (e.g. you probably know the Glenfidich version) but this is a different animal from making AA into AAA.

The only difference between your project and continued aging in the BT warehouses is your entry proof was lower and you used a new barrel. I don't think either factor really matters if you check as we are discussing the quality and choose to dump at the time you feel it is right - this will probably (but who knows) be a question of months not years.

After you dump you will have seasoned barrels and if you continue the project you will (except again for proof) come even closer to the continued aging model of the warehouse.

Gary

[barturtle]

Coffee filter is my first thought as well, though I might invest in a reusable metal one instead of using a paper type. I did have the thought of using a Brita-type water filter as they use activated charcoal as the filering media, you could even chill filter in one of these little pitchers.

I wonder if the mesquite charcoal would impart a mesquite flavor. I wonder if JD sells its used maple charcoal, I know I've seen barrel char for sale at BT's giftshop, seems JD would do something similar at its giftshop.

Sounds like a good plan. I look forward to seeing a barrel sample at the next Gazebo.