Dougdogs' Whiskey Rebarreling...

[kbuzbee]

... what Dane said. And, YES, it is charred. Medium.

Ken

[dougdog]

Gettin' started on Barrel #2...

This is the stock immediately available for consideration. I'll post a couple more pictures of 1/2 at a time.

I'm going to use a 3 gallon barrel, medium char, again...I'm going to take the 5'er back and exchange for two more, but this time they will be only lightly toasted barrels. I think I'd rather have many smaller experiments than a few larger ones.

More to come on that!

Dougdog

[dougdog]

1st half from right to left...

Wild Turkey will make a good base, both in flavor and proof, lots of McKenna and JW Dant for the HH influence, plus a few odds and ends for tweaking.

Dougdog

[dougdog]

The second half shows the "OLDies" Forester, Fitz, Crow, Taylor and Grand-Dad, plus a few more of those odds and ends for yet more tweaking.

GARY...What to do????

Mixture and ratio recommendations will be considered and appreciated. What would yours be?

Dougdog…

[kbuzbee]

Hey guys, this barrel has had water in it now since Christmas. It is still leaking a bit (1/4 cup?) right through the back. Their website says to cure it 3-5 days (last Friday) and then leave the water in another 5-7 days. Okay I realize this is only 7 days but I expected it to have stopped by now.

(Doug, I plan to to regular WT101 in mine if that impacts your decision. BTW, what is the Brown label WT you have there??)

Ken

[Rughi]

Doug,

Unfortunately, the potential windstorm that seems to be brewing would dissuade me from the drive, but I'll offer some thoughts.

If it were me, since the first barrel was a young, current-era, low rye barrel, I'd go with a high rye, golden-age blending. I'd use the Forester and Grand Dad you show and then assess whether to top up with a sweeter, high-corn whiskey like the Ancient Age, or perhaps a high bodied bottle.

Depending on how that tasted, I might add the Crow and Early Times just because it seems like they would have a lower rye simpatico with the Forester and Grand Dad. The yeastiness of the Crow might be especially good as a minor ingredient.

I'd save the Taylor and Charter for another exercise where the key would be to bring out the butterscotch and caramels that these 2 excelled at in their glory days.

The Bourbon deLuxe I'd use carefully on a batch on which I had high expectations. I'm not sure it's consistently of high quality.

I can't remember the Dant or McKenna in great detail...

Roger

[dougdog]

Ken, you wrote:

(Doug, I plan to do regular WT101 in mine if that impacts your decision. BTW, what is the Brown label WT you have there??)

Ken, somehow, if I recall correctly, you had previously mentioned your intent to use all WT 101 for your project and that has indeed already influenced mine. (We were going to swap barrel samples down the road, right?)

I was going to do standard WT 101, but now I've considered a little different twist. I have the availability of other bottles of WT products that others folks might not...so I thought to myself, why not use what is available my in my resource? That, coupled with a recent experience at "Oak Barrel" in Berkeley, has caused me to reconsider a couple things.

Bob, who works there, a friend of Roger, was kind to offer me a sip of his barrel project, (he has been doing this for about 18 months now) while I was shopping there a couple days ago. He explained his experience and thoughts regarding his past decisions, plus there were a few more thoughts thrown in by Homer along the way. (Homer is a very knowledgeable fellow) The whiskey tasted as though he/they knew what was going on. To say the least I was impressed. Aside from the fact that he blended many straight types of bourbon together to fill the barrel...the barrel of choice was lightly toasted...NOT charred.

(There are currently two lightly toasted barrels on order at the "Oak Barrel")

Bob had mentioned the whiskies used but I didn't write them down, and it seems that all were currently available pretty much US market wide...Beam White label, Forester Grand-Dad...etc.

For the second part of your post, The WT "Brown Label" you refer to is an early 80's bottling of an 86.8 proof version. It has a US government strip stamp with no numbers, in a 750ml bottle and has a bar code. Circa 82-84.

I have gone through my bunker and cleaned out some of the stuff that is overstock and found that I had plenty of resource to fill a three gallon barrel with out making a whiskey purchase. Most of the stock is in metric bottles, metric was kind of the dividing line for the thought process in decision making. (Actually, without calculating, there is probably enough to fill three 3 gallon barrels and still have some left over) But, extra whiskey allows for flexibility in tweaking the ratios that make a specific flavor profile while blending.

Anyway, the 2nd little barrel is going to get filled with water today.

Dougdog

[kbuzbee]

Ken, somehow, if I recall correctly, you had previously mentioned your intent to use all WT 101 for your project and that has indeed already influenced mine. (We were going to swap barrel samples down the road, right?)...

Anyway, the 2nd little barrel is going to get filled with water today.

Absolutely correct. I guess I was saying that, if this barrel EVER stops leaking, that is still my plan. And, yes, exchanging samples is high on my agenda. I can't wait to see how these come out. The lightly toasted is a good point I hadn't considered before, but it makes perfect sense. I'd thought that the effect of the char would diminish through succesive refillings to the point I'd want every bit of it I could get.... Time will tell.

Ken

[Ken Weber]

Doug,

Sorry I missed your question about the magic of 44 degrees. We have found that when the whiskey reaches 44 degrees, it becomes dormant. The aging process ceases as the liquid no longer migrates into the wood.

Ken

[dougdog]

Thanks Roger! You make some interesting observations and good points. (Spot on with your recollection of these good old whiskies)

I was striving for a whiskey with:

Complexity.

Full palate, bigger mouth feel.

Higher entry proof.

Heavy rye influence, cinnamon, clove and nutmeg spices

Lots of sweetness/caramel/rum/butterscotch/maple syrup.

Older starting age(s) than the AA previously used in barrel 1.

Darker color(s).

All these ingredients to build a bold nose, complex palate and a good warming finish in the next experiment. I tried to start with known "good" whiskies...each in their own right!

The picture shows Tim using a plastic "eye dropper" to mix measured portions of the corpus whiskies in a mockup blend.

More to come...

dougdog

[dougdog]

This is the picture of the selected whiskies. From left to right they are:

1. Kentucky Tavern, 8yo, 86 proof, 4/5 qt.

2. Ancient Age, NAS, 86 proof, 1 liter.

3. 2 Yellowstone, NAS, 86 proof, 1@ 1 quart, 1@ 750ml.

4. 2 Wild Turkey, Old #8, Nas, 101 proof, B1994, 2@ 1 liter.

5. Old Grand-Dad, NAS, 86 proof, ½ gallon.

6. J. W. Dant, 4yo, 80 proof, 1.75 liter, Old Style Whiskey.

7. Old Forester BIB, 4yo, 100 proof, 1.75 liter, distilled circa 1973, b 78.

8. 2 Old Taylor, NAS, 80 proof, 1.75 liter.

9. Henry McKenna, NAS, 80 proof, 1.75 liter, Louisville edition.

What are equally interesting were the ones that were not selected.

Tim arrived around noon, we didn’t know Roger was going to post, so, we started things off with discussion about the type of characteristics of the blend that we could make, using the whiskies on the table. One of the first things we decided was how much we were going to produce. We decided, three gallons for the barrel, 1 liter for Tim, One liter for Doug, a bottle for Roger who was at work, a bottle for archive and a bottle to take to Sampler/Gazebo this spring.

The next thing to do was eliminate the ones that did not taste good. This involved pouring each potential candidate into separate glasses for nosing…and then tasting. There were a few bad ones. (Note that these are older bottles and things can and do go bad inside the bottles over time. When newer, the whiskies would have been top in their class) The AA 86 proof quart bottle that we opened and found tasty at the last study group, had gone bad since opening, (rubber tires) and that one went straight down the drain, immediately followed by the 1.75 liters of Ezra brooks 7yo (dead fish).

We decided that a few others were neutral or surplus. The Bourbon DeLuxe was set aside to use in cooking, and the Old Fitz was put on hold if we decided to use its’ mint profile. Maker’s Mark, Old Crow, Ten High, Heaven Hill 6yo, Most of the Wild Turkey Old #8’s and the AA (buffalo Trace versions) will be used in another barrel project.

The ratio of each component was decided by using measured amounts of each to arrive with good combination and balance. Several models were constructed, nosed, tasted and discussed. Adjustments were made and a final recipe was determined. Bottles were then selectively removed from the line-up according to the ratio in the model. The picture demonstrates the bottle count and size that reflect the final ratios in the test glass.

I have a 5 gallon plastic jug that we used for the “Marriage†of the whiskies…we began pouring…and pouring…

That will lead us to the next picture…

doug

[dougdog]

There's Tim...dumpin' the last of the Old Grand-Dad into the big jug...

Tim is a good taster and knows good whiskey. He was instrumental in the creative process of making this blend...Thanks for your help Tim!

dougdog

[TMH]

Thanks for your help Tim!

I don't think the picture really shows all the hard work Doug put me through. He really worked my a## off! First he had me go through and taste the wide selection of his dusty corner finds, then he made me taste some more. This went on until the final selection was made. Can you believe he then made me drink the vatting of the best bourbons? When I was finished with that, he had me eat this tasty pizza loaded with great meat toppings, which he had paid for. Can you imagine???!!! To top it all off, he gave me a quart of the vatting!

Doug, anytime you need someone to sacrifice themselves in the name of your rebarreling project, you can count on me. It's a dirty job, but someone has got to do it.

[Joeluka]

I NEED HELP GETTING A BARREL HERE IN NEW YORK. Who do I call or order one from??? Please help me with this. By the way, Put me down for a bottle from all the Barrels being aged here.

Joe

[Gillman]

Guys, sorry I couldn't make suggestions due to still being on vacation with intermittent Internet access but what you have done sounds great! I am sure the vatting is of top quality, looking at the bottles that went into it. Many were older distillations and benefited from the fruity taste and heavier body whiskey had at the time so the combination must be very good especially if tweaked as you explained.

Doug, due to my present situation I wasn't able to follow this thread properly.

Is your plan, i) to age this vatting to come up with an improved version that can stand on its own and, ii) also develop thereby a seasoned barrel in which to age certain other whiskey and if so, what type i.e., do you intend to use a non-vatted whiskey for the rebarreling (say all Ancient Age?).

Gary

[dougdog]

Gary,

Timing is everything, sorry to miss your comment, hope vacation was grand.

Your comment about the whiskies used in this barrel was spot on, and even without further re-barreling it is a pleasant whiskey as it currently exists. It is rich and heavy with a good mature color. It is also moderately complex (multi dimensional) without over doing it.

Regarding the longer term/other use question, there is most definitely a plan for the future. The scary part is, that plan is growing by leaps and bounds. I was just going to use the first barrel in an attempt to further age a young bourbon that held good promise…hence the choice for AA. Barrel 2 was to develop a different profile of “filler material†to start off with and see what happens…

All “seasonedâ€/â€used†barrels will go forward for “re-casking†Single Malts…..here’s where the scary part comes in….

(I apologize to all of you who are already scared to read any further because I used the words “Single Maltâ€)

I’m thinking about starting a couple more barrels…one with a price point Rum/Rhum and one with a price point Sherry. Which will now require me to learn more about rum and sherry (And I already have a little head-start on the rum)

That leads to more decision making later on about what will be used in those barrels once conditioned. Conditioning those will be done in periods of time frames much longer than three years and sampling/consumption will be done periodically on a refill/solera concept basis, so that will leave me some time to decide. I hope to have a little help from my friends...Of course it includes sampeling.

I just realized I need more little barrels….

Gotta go to Berkeley…BRB!

Dougdog

[Gillman]

Thanks Doug, it's all great planning and some of it intrepid to be sure.

The rum and sherry barrels can be used later, of course, for malt whisky (i.e., no less than the conditioned barrels that will have held bourbon). Or, you can use them to re-barrel a mingling of Canadian whiskies.

Rum has tremendous potential. I have a number of bottles of rums that are personal blends of between 10 and 30 brands. You can get great complexity by doing this and the best examples approach good whisk(e)y in quality and character.

I use a base of Demeraras (for rich treacle-like taste) or similar rums (e.g. Gosling) but I build on that by adding "spicy" rums such as Cubans, young white "agricole" rhums or a white overproof from Jamaica (the English equivalent to the agricoles more or less), and so on. So you get skeins of flavour running through a satisfyingly rich Demerara base, like say in a good blended Scotch.

Pirat (much spoken of here of late) is a blend of rums brought to a plant on Anguilla and blended there. This is what I do, too, in prosaic Toronto. I am not saying mine is as good as theirs but I get great complex yet balanced, smooth flavours with great finish. One of those aged in a seasoned bourbon barrel would be really good. I'll bring one of these bottled blends to the Gazebo.

Gary

[kbuzbee]

Well, tonight I filled the barrel. Regular WT101. I'm very much looking forward to tasting this as it ages. I will post to all as things progress (sorry Doug for piggybacking on your thread)

(I did take photos and will post as time allows)

Ken

[kbuzbee]

Thanks Doug, it's all great planning and some of it intrepid to be sure.

The rum and sherry barrels can be used later, of course, for malt whisky (i.e., no less than the conditioned barrels that will have held bourbon). Or, you can use them to re-barrel a mingling of Canadian whiskies.

Rum has tremendous potential. I have a number of bottles of rums that are personal blends of between 10 and 30 brands. You can get great complexity by doing this and the best examples approach good whisk(e)y in quality and character.

I use a base of Demeraras (for rich treacle-like taste) or similar rums (e.g. Gosling) but I build on that by adding "spicy" rums such as Cubans, young white "agricole" rhums or a white overproof from Jamaica (the English equivalent to the agricoles more or less), and so on. So you get skeins of flavour running through a satisfyingly rich Demerara base, like say in a good blended Scotch.

Pirat (much spoken of here of late) is a blend of rums brought to a plant on Anguilla and blended there. This is what I do, too, in prosaic Toronto. I am not saying mine is as good as theirs but I get great complex yet balanced, smooth flavours with great finish. One of those aged in a seasoned bourbon barrel would be really good. I'll bring one of these bottled blends to the Gazebo.

Gary

Rum, hadn't thought about doing rum. I was thinking about WT Rye though. I like it so much the way it is. Not sure what more time in the barrel would do. Opinions??

Ken

[kbuzbee]

Well, the second barrel is "aging" now. Had several candidates but, in the end, choose Maker's Mark. I looked and looked at it and I think this will work out well (at least I hope so). Wish me luck. Expecting 9-12 months will do it.

Ken

[dougdog]

On February 18th the whiskey study group met again at my home. The group was small but not lacking in enthusiasm or camaraderie. Prior to the evenings’ event I got into the two barrels of re-barreled whiskey and took samples. I made comparisons on color alone and was very pleasantly surprised. The color change was significant! Then I tasted the “vatting†that Tim and I had done just 6 weeks prior….Magnificent…sweet and smooth, totally richer and mellow. Tim agreed! This whiskey was quite dark going into the barrel but the color had deepened considerably…beautiful to look at in the glass and a delight to run past my nose and lips.

The AA in the other barrel had also had a dramatic color change. I suppose this is for two reasons, I followed Ken Weber’s’ advice and got the barrels where they would not drop below 44 degrees…and placed them where the temperatures would have a wider range and reach even higher temperatures. The attic was not the right place at this time of the year…I brought both barrels and placed them in my bonsai work studio. They are positioned on a table next to a south facing window wall in full sun. They warm up nicely in the day time and cool off in the evenings, the room never gets as cold as the attic and usually gets warmer.

This will change come summertime, but, for the winter months, the studio will do just fine.

I have purchased two more barrels. These are both 2 gallon capacity this time. One will be filled with a Bourbon Whiskey and the other with Rum. Both will be eventually used to re-barrel SMSW.

The previous leakage at the bung hole has been greatly reduced…it turns out that the bungs in the barrels are for shipping purposes only and were not intended for use after filling…you will note in the picture that the new bungs are of a different design…much taller!

I am very satisfied with the current progress of the re-barreling projects… I will bring samples (Before and after) to the Gazebo this spring.

[cowdery]

It sounds like you may be on to something. Finally, science for good.

[Gillman]

Excellent, Doug, you will have to decide if maturation through re-barreling will have to stop soon. If the whiskey is taking on so much color, it may continue past optimum point. This will be hard to judge at the beginning, but many of us felt rebarreling in small containers had a short horizon. Anyway continue on, I can't wait to try the results.

Gary

[dougdog]

Chuck…I don’t know how much “Science†is going on here; I’m just hoping that some of this stuff is drinkable.

The “drinkable†part is a side bar to the goal of getting a used barrel ready for re-barreling Single Malt Scotch or a vatting of single malts. (After vatting that last barrel of bourbon, I have decided to consider a vatting of malts) (Just putting all those vintage Bourbons and whiskies together made for a very nice glass of Whiskey) I’m also going to attempt re-barreling SMSW in a new barrel to see what happens….In Scotland; they like to put the whisky in used barrels. (I believe it is required by law) but it has been told, the raw spirit is too delicate for new wood…

One of the guys at the Oak Barrel, Bob, where I buy my new barrels, has done re-barreling of bourbon on more than one occasion. He has freely shared his experiences with me and has brought light and confirmation to several of the bits of advice given by others here on the site. His last batch that I got to sample was a vatting of the current releases of Old Grand–Dad 80 proof, Jim Beam white label, Old Forrester 80 proof and just a little bit of Makers’ Mark for some sweetness. I’m not sure even he remembers the exact ratios. Bob is the one that got things straightened out on the leaking bungs…

Back to the re-barreled Bourbon…There has been much discussion regarding the time frame necessary to get satisfactory results….all we have to do is define “Satisfactory†right?

At the end of the day it comes down to personal preference…

Too woody for one is just gettin’ to be enough barrel influence for another. Sweet for one is too sweet for another, and so on…

For me there are countless variables and combinations of certain qualities that make up a good whiskey…for example, there are times when I like strong oak influence, but not at the expense of the initial sweetness first hitting the tongue. Then, after noting primary sweetness, it is certainly acceptable to have that sweetness move on to a dry finish. I was born with a sweet tooth a mile wide, so if the old age and wood influence takes all the sweetness out of the picture, then I would probably not enjoy that whiskey as much.

Gary,

I suppose there will come a day when the whiskey in these little barrels will be over exposed to the wood. I will be archiving 750ml bottles along the way as significant changes are noted. Should at any time the whiskey go over the threshold of being pleasant, then it can be bottled and held to be used in the next vatting with younger less wooded whiskies to re-barrel and start all over with again….but someday, there will likely come a time when the wood has made its’ biggest contribution and the new whiskies can stay in the barrel without so much influence for longer periods of time.

Still more to learn about wood influence, Ken’s re-barreling experiments at Buffalo Trace are of interest to me; double barreling 4 year old bourbon in new barrels again might look like too much wood influence to some folks… I’m starting to think otherwise…I’m thinking “Double Richâ€.

Best regards, dougdog

[Gillman]

That's a good point about a barrel reaching its natural limit at some point and the whiskey achieving stability from there. That may explain why 23 year old bourbons and older are drinkable. They may not have changed significantly from about 15 years old. This may vary too from barrel to barrel. This may explain also why malt whiskies, many of which are aged in reused bourbon wood, do not get sweet and char-smoky like bourbon. Most of those barrels in recent years would have been used 4-8 years (e.g. your typical Beam, Makers or JD barrel). One would think aging malt whiskey in those would make the whisky half-bourbon-like after 10-12 years in barrel but it doesn't. Many here know the familar "white wine" color of many such malts. The bourbon barrels probably gave their all to the bourbon when first emptied. Not that some change doesn't happen between 15-25 years but it may be minimal and not just that, change between 7-15 years may also be minimal.

Gary