Dougdogs' Whiskey Rebarreling...

[BourbonJoe]

That's a very good, and very believable point Gary.

Joe

[Joeluka]

That's a good point about a barrel reaching its natural limit at some point and the whiskey achieving stability from there. That may explain why 23 year old bourbons and older are drinkable. They may not have changed significantly from about 15 years old. This may vary too from barrel to barrel. This may explain also why malt whiskies, many of which are aged in reused bourbon wood, do not get sweet and char-smoky like bourbon. Most of those barrels in recent years would have been used 4-8 years (e.g. your typical Beam, Makers or JD barrel). One would think aging malt whiskey in those would make the whisky half-bourbon-like after 10-12 years in barrel but it doesn't. Many here know the familar "white wine" color of many such malts. The bourbon barrels probably gave their all to the bourbon when first emptied. Not that some change doesn't happen between 15-25 years but it may be minimal and not just that, change between 7-15 years may also be minimal.

Gary

They take first-fill used bourbon barrells and put a high proof grain spirit in them first at SMSW distilleries. This takes the rest of the char-smoke flavor out of the barrel and on the second-fill they put in the single malt and then let the barrel work the spirit for many years.

[BourbonJoe]

They take first-fill used bourbon barrells and put a high proof grain spirit in them first at SMSW distilleries. This takes the rest of the char-smoke flavor out of the barrel and on the second-fill they put in the single malt and then let the barrel work the spirit for many years.

What do they do with the high proof grain after they take it out of the barrels?

joe :usflag:

[barturtle]

The grain is used in Blended whisky. All whisky used in the production must be aged. and in the case of an age stated blend the grain must also be of the age stated

[cowdery]

Science: The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

If this isn't science I don't know what is, and not only science but important science of interest to dozens if not hundreds of people.

And future generations? Who truly knows.

[Gillman]

Doug, I've done a fair amount of work on vatting rums. Here is my experience: take a few types that are similar and blend them. E.g., blend some Demeraras with other dark rums. So you have a base of rich treacly rums, and then add not a lot of spicy different kinds. E.g. add some spiced rum to it, or some young Puerto Rican rums. So your flavor profile remains dark/rich but with skeins of flavour through the drink to add counterpoint and interest.

Or go the other way, do a base of white rums with skeins of dark. Or all-amber with trailings of a couple of high proof rums.

You can mix willy-nilly and it won't be bad but it is better in my view to work off a theme.

Gary

[Gillman]

Sounds great keep going! Doug before you enter the vatting, please give us a taste note.

Gary

[dougdog]

to the NON-WHISKEY ALCOHOL section of the forum...'cause it's Rum...What the heck was I thinking?

OOOOOPS!....Sorry Jim!

When I get around to filling "Barrel #4" we can resume here...it will have Bourbon in it!

[dougdog]

I finally got around to compiling all the totals...

Barrel #2 contents…Vintage Whiskies…all pre 1984….all tax stamped closures.

24% (2) Old Taylor, Bourbon, 86 proof, NAS, 1.75 liters.

12% (1) Old Forester, Bourbon, 100 proof, (Bond) 4 years old, 1.75 liters.

5% (1) Kentucky Tavern, Bourbon, 86 proof, 8 years old, 4/5ths quart.

7% (1) Ancient Age, Bourbon, 86 proof, NAS, 1 quart.

12% (1) J. W. Dant “Old Style†Whiskey, 80 proof, 4 years old, 1.75 liters. (Indiana)

12% (1) Henry McKenna, Bourbon, 80 proof, NAS, 1.75 liters. (Louisville)

13% (2) Yellowstone, Bourbon, 86 proof, 4 years old, 1 quart. (Louisville)

14% (1) Wild Turkey, Bourbon, Old #8, 101 proof, NAS, 1liter.

[dougdog]

With the news that Jake is coming to town next month and him wanting to sample some barrels, I thought I’d do a little check on Barrel number one. (If you remember, this is the barrel with only AA in it) It has been a few weeks or more since I got into that one and wanted to “see†how things are doing in there.

I started earlier today by stopping of at the local liquor store and bought another 750ml of new AA and a bottle of Everclear. I wanted to get a taste of what the whiskey first started as and compare that to what it is today…the everclear is to help boost the barrel proof if the flavor aspect of things works out…

First, I extracted 750mls from the barrel and bottled that as a sample for next months get together. I took another portion and put it in a snifter, probably about 75-100 ml. WOW!...the color is real good now, quite delightful to look at. In another snifter, I poured some of the “new†AA, and in yet another I poured some Everclear.

I nosed and tasted the regular AA, and then I nosed and tasted the barrel sample, then the everclear…

I mixed a bit of the everclear in with the regular AA and found the boost in ABV to be quite pleasant…now for the real test…I put some everclear in the sample drawn today and the extra boost was well received there as well. I decide to go ahead and dump the bottle of everclear in the barrel. I’ll let that sit for a month and we can all sample it again when Jake is in town. (I’m considering dumping another one in the barrel as the one bottle dumped today will not represent the ratios in the barrel to those I set up in the glass for the testing.)

So that’s the latest on barrel number one for now…hopefully someone will post some tasting notes after Jakes’ visit.

[dougdog]

This weekend, Friday evening to be exact, Roger stopped by the house and we got into barrel #2 to check the progress.....geees, this stuff smells good!

We thieved a couple samples and put it into two snifters to "review" the progress. Roger and I agreed it was quite delightful and with Rogers' experienced palate a determination was made that the new wood/barrel influence was sufficient to stop the ageing process.

Saturday morning the transfer was made from the barrel into the 5 gallon carboy. I used a large funnel that was equipped with a brass screen to hold the larger chunks of the char that the barrel released over the last couple months. (There was about a 1/2 of a sandwich bag of charcoal that came out of the barrel)

Now in the big glass bottle, the 2nd, refinement, filtering process was done when downsizing the bourbon into 1.75 liter bottles. I found that a coffee filter was to slow and wound up using a paper towel to complete the filtering process. I changed the paper towel filter every time a 1.75 was filled. The barrel yielded 4 1.75's and the better part of a 200ml.

I will bring sample bottles of "before" and "after" to the Gazebo in a few weeks.

"Empty" Barrel #2 now awaits further disposition.

[pepcycle]

I'd like to see the difference against a neutal (White) background.

I can't wait.

Prime Rib, Manhattans, Gazebo, Rebarrel!!!!

Ed

[Jake_Parrott]

So dougdog's invocation of Everclear has me thinking...perhaps we should chip in and barrel a barrel-proof-or-close (say, 107pf or higher) barrel. I'll nominate dougdog for the husbandry. Dunno....just something about using everclear that seems to play around with the concept.

[dougdog]

I'd like to see the difference against a neutal (White) background.

I can't wait.

Prime Rib, Manhattans, Gazebo, Rebarrel!!!!

Ed

Ed, strangely enough, I haven't compared the color yet from this barrel (#2) to the original archive sample. I'll see if I can get two bottles of the same size and shape that can demonstrate the color change, if there is one, in a photograph...this whiskey started out rather dark to begin with...that was one of the important factors in choosing the whiskies that went into the original vatting.

(The more significant color change has been realized in the AA barrel #1...I'll be bringing samples of re-barreled AA too) (BTW Jake, the AA barrel is the whiskey that I added the Everclear to, not the vatting in barrel #2, that whiskey was able to stand on its' own without boosting proof...you'll see.)

Doug - I'm not a good husband...just ask my ex-wife - dog

(actually Jake, I'd like to hear more about your idea!)

[dougdog]

I just realized when gathering the information for the contents of barrel #2, I omitted the Old Grand-Dad that was in Tim's hand in the picture...the revised list looks like this:

Barrel #2 contents…Vintage Whiskies…all pre 1984….all tax stamped closures.

21% (2) Old Taylor, Bourbon, 86 proof, NAS, 1.75 liters.

10% (1) Old Forester, Bourbon, 100 proof, (Bond) 4 years old, 1.75 liters.

4% (1) Kentucky Tavern, Bourbon, 86 proof, 8 years old, 4/5ths quart.

5% (1) Ancient Age, Bourbon, 86 proof, NAS, 1 quart.

10% (1) J. W. Dant “Old Style†Whiskey, 80 proof, 4 years old, 1.75 liters. (Indiana)

10% (1) Henry McKenna, Bourbon, 80 proof, NAS, 1.75 liters. (Louisville)

11% (2) Yellowstone, Bourbon, 86 proof, 4 years old, 1 quart. (Louisville)

12% (2) Wild Turkey, Bourbon, Old #8, 101 proof, NAS, 1liter.

11% (1) Old Grand-Dad , Bourbon, 86 proof, NAS, ½ gallon.

Dumbdog

[kbuzbee]

Now in the big glass bottle, the 2nd, refinement, filtering process was done when downsizing the bourbon into 1.75 liter bottles. I found that a coffee filter was to slow and wound up using a paper towel to complete the filtering process.

How did that paper towel thing work out, Doug?? I've always heard paper towels were not good for things like this because of chemicals used in processing.... No worries though??

Mine are still chugging along.

Oh - FYI - I was thinking about using my Toddy Coffee maker as the filter:

http://www.toddycafe.com/customerservice/instructions.php

It's wide at the top so it can catch the dump and has a small hole that should be able to be directed into the bottle. It has a fibre style filter. What do you think?

It makes terrible coffee but may find new life with Bourbon

Ken

[dougdog]

Ken,

I used only a ¼ sheet of a pure white Brawny paper towel, the filter/funnel is shown in an earlier post here on this thread. The funnel is a two part device. I separated the funnel and sandwiched the small piece of paper towel between the halves. The paper towel has a bit loser weave than the coffee filters I use in my Mr. Coffee machine. The towel worked just fine to remove the remaining ultra fine charcoal “dustâ€. Particles smaller than the paper towel removed would be a non issue as far as I’m concerned. The whiskey is clear. (Ed, I did check the color to the original blend, it is darker, deeper red color. I don’t think the camera is going to be able to demonstrate the change…you’ll just have to see for yourself at Sampler/Gazebo time) IMHO it is some of the most unusual and spectacular color I have ever experienced in a Bourbon. It is best described as similar to the color change that well sherried scotches exhibit when compared to their bourbon barrel counterparts.

I’m watching for any sediment to form in the bottom of the bottles to give me an idea on the filtering capabilities of the products used. Just as a side note, some of the vintage bottles that I have found in the past have a significant amount of sediment in the bottles. I usually just give the bottle a shake and it goes right back into solution. (Probably fatty acids that were left in the whiskey prior to those days of “chill-filtering†where bottlers now days strip out all the flavor of the whiskey to keep it getting “cloudyâ€:smiley_acbt: ) (I don’t think it takes too much text on a label to educate consumers to the advantage gained in flavor, heck, the “haze†could be viewed as a badge of honor or bragging rights given the right verbage!:cool: ...I digress) (BTW, you good folks at BT, keep up the good work here, you are miles ahead of the competition:grin: …I digress yet again…sheeees!:skep: )

I had no concerns about any chemical residue in the paper towel being a factor…maybe I should have? I’m not a chemist and I don’t know what, if any, negative potential lies in the process I used. The paper towel did not dissolve or fall apart.

As for what you are going to use, I really don’t know…this remains an experiment…so, just keep on experimenting! I say, try it!

I personally appreciate all the comments that have been laid out here on this thread. They give me, and hopefully others, plenty to consider when making decisions. They have been quite helpful in these projects so far.

Is it Sampler time yet...just a couple weeks!:bigeyes: I’ve never had a Manhattan, so I’m very much looking towards Gary’s’ mixology and dinner with all you whiskey folks.:cool:

[Jake_Parrott]

You've never had a Manhattan? Oh you poor thing!

[Gillman]

I will do my best and in light of Doug not having had one before, I will mix it in front of him and the group which suits also the transport issues I mentioned earlier. Just to give people an idea, I plan to get some good quality (but not best - this is a cocktail and blending makes it best!) wheat-recipe bourbon, maybe Charter 8 or 10 or some Old Fitzgerald. I will also get a good straight rye whiskey, to put some rye in the picture and also get some blending going. Then, probably some Canadian whisky that is not too old, to soften and lighten ("display") the flavors a bit.

For bitters, probably I'll use at least, Collins orange and maybe some Peychaud's.

For vermouth, I am not sure which kind (save that it must be red), I might get Cinzano or Nouilly's.

Finally, again I am not sure, but I might put in a dash of Herbsaint or another anise-flavored drink. Early Manhattan recipes call for that. Maybe make one jug with, one without.

Stirred not shaken.

Cherries. Cocktail sticks.

Ice optional.

Here's to ya.

Gary

[Jake_Parrott]

Would someone from California please bring Mr. Gillman a few bottles of Vya sweet vermouth?

[kbuzbee]

By the way - I used a funnel w/ coffee filter to draw the last samples. Worked well for that quantity. The WT barrel is aging nicely. This is going much quicker than I'd expected. The wood and char notes are maybe 30% increased from the base sample, giving the pour a nice oaky overtone, there is a hint of bitterness at the end, perhaps additional filtering (or letting it settle) would take care of that, but it was very enjoyable. The biggest change was in the nose which was more full than stock 101 (but nothing at all like Kentucky Spirit or Tribute) more like Russel's Reserve (the retired one).

Thanks for the input,

Ken

[NorCalBoozer]

Hi Ken,

just re-read this thread and noticed that you had a WT 101 and Makers rebarrelling going on. Seems there are at least 5 different barrels going on right now and it gets a bit hard to follow a certain one as we all talk about them in the same thread.

I'm wondering if we should have a different thread for each barrel or maybe a whole re-barrelling section? Would be much easier to follow startup conditions and progress for each.

thoughts anyone?

I have a barrel of WT rye right now that I filled a few weeks back and another waiting to be filled.

Greg

[jeff]

You can get Vya vermouth in KY. I haven't seen it in Lexington, but the Cork and Bottle in Covington has some. $17.99 for 750ml.

[Jake_Parrott]

You can get Vya vermouth in KY. I haven't seen it in Lexington, but the Cork and Bottle in Covington has some. $17.99 for 750ml.

I won't be at Bardstown, so someone please keep Mr. Gillman from having to use Cinzano or Noilly rouge in his Manhattans!

[Gillman]

I appreciate all these suggestions. Leave it to me.

Gary