Question about Old Fitz Prime

[BourbonJoe]

I have two bottles of Old Fitz Prime. One is a 1972 bottling of 7 y/o at 86.8 proof from Stitzel-Weller. The other is a 1973 bottling of 6 y/o at 86 proof from "Old Fitzgerald Distillery, Louisville". Is the latter still not S-W whiskey or was there a buyout/name change in that era? Anybody know?

Joe :usflag:

[Joeluka]

When S-W was sold in 1972, the name was changed to the "Old Fitzgerald Distillery" Its still S-W whiskey.

[BourbonJoe]

Thanks Joe.

[doubleblank]

The Old Fitz Prime showed up in numerous ages and packages. I've got several "Old Fitzgerald Prime Straight" at 8yo and 86.8 proof and "Old Fitz Prime" at 7yo and 86.8 proof. Mine are SW Distillery.....same as Old Fitz Dist. Not sure when they changed the name of the distillery, but it was shortly after the sale in '72.

Randy

[JamesH007]

In the Van Winkle book it states that the old "Old FitzGerald" family run distillary would not sell anything under 100 proof because Pappy did not belieive in shipping water around the country. I think stayed this way until it was sold in 73.

[JamesH007]

actually was sold June 30 1972. There was an 86.8 proof introduced in what seems to be about 1964. Another thing it mentions is that Norton Simon was going to start mixing the s-w bourbon with their cheaper/inferior Bourbon. Does anyone know if this actually happend in w/ the Old Fitz label?

[ThomasH]

According to the Van winkle family's book "But always fine bourbon", Old Fitzgerald 86.8 proof bourbon came out in 1964, the week after Pappy Van Winkle retired. It was brought out to compete with other brands that were cutting proof to reduce cost and increase profit. When S-W was sold to Norton Simon in 1972, Norton Simon had a distillery somewhere that was called Kentucky River. This distillery had a bunch of bourbon in warehouses that was very inferior in quality. Norton Simon used some of Stitzel Wellers Old Fitzgerald bourbon to blend with the inferior bourbon from Kentucky River. It was then bottled as the Old Log Cabin brand that Stitzel Weller Had made for years. According to the book, the brand went down hill almost immediately due to the inferior whiskey used to make it. I recommend this book to anyone that is a whiskey fan. I got my copy and read it cover to cover in one evening. The sale of Stitzel Weller was one of the saddest days in the whiskey industry, only eclipsed by its eventual closure!

Thomas

[cowdery]

actually was sold June 30 1972. There was an 86.8 proof introduced in what seems to be about 1964. Another thing it mentions is that Norton Simon was going to start mixing the s-w bourbon with their cheaper/inferior Bourbon. Does anyone know if this actually happend in w/ the Old Fitz label?

I don't believe it did with the Old Fitz label, though possibly some lesser brands were compromised in this way. At any event, in later years the Old Fitz and Weller expressions were all Stitzel-Weller whiskey, until that distillery closed in 1992 and the whiskey made there cleared the pipeline in subsequent years.

When we talk about Stitzel-Weller and Stitzel-Weller whiskey, we mean whiskey made at the distillery in Shively that was built shortly after the end of Prohibition and ceased distilling in 1992, regardless of the plant's 'official' name at any given point in time, or its ownership.

[bobbyc]

The sale of Stitzel Weller was one of the saddest days in the whiskey industry, only eclipsed by its eventual closure!

This is as good a time as any,let's do it!

At Bourbon Fest 2005 after the Gala a group dropped by the Gazebo. Among them was Dave Pickerell who is the Master Distiller of Maker's Mark.

He told me and Cliff that as a consultant to United Distillers it was under his recomendation that Stitzel-Weller be closed. I commented that I wouldn't want that on my resume. We told him he owed us a barrel proof Maker's for that!

I suppose we should have questioned why that was such a good idea. To tell the truth I was at a total loss....

[bluesbassdad]

Bobby,

I know nothing about the bourbon business, but I'd still bet it was solely a financial decision, taking into account unit production cost, transportation cost, facility maintenance cost, property taxes, etc.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[bobbyc]

I know nothing about the bourbon business, but I'd still bet it was solely a financial decision

I would say that was exactly it if I had to guess. Sally VanWinkle Campbell states that a needed capital investment and updating of physical plant had a lot to do with the sale of Stitzel-Weller in 1972.

The Warehouses there are being used by Makers and HH. If someone were hardy enough and had deep enough pockets the plant itself perhaps could be bought.

Does anyone know who the actual owner at present is?

Immediately there is an asbestos removal problem, I 've been told.

UD had at the time the most modern plant built to date, perhaps it was a no brainer to shutter SW. There's just a lot of romance connected with the old site.Also by the time it closed the water was sourced from Louisville Water company, the aquafier has become polluted and was used only for cooling.

I guess the question is, "will it ever run again?" The safe money is on "Probably not".

[luv2hunt]

So is the bourbon in a glass decanter....with a hanging tag...from Old Fitzgerald Distillery, date in glass on the bottom is '89....SW whiskey?

Decanter is actually pretty cool, tip the bottle and the whiskey actually goes up into the glass stopper. Bottle has a fake tax stamp....red paper strip across the back of the stopper and the top of the bottle.

Dawn

[schlep]

An Old Fitzgerald Prime 7yo 80 proof half gallon is one of the more odd things I have seen. Profit margin expansion was just as popular 30 years ago?

schlep

[wku88]

When we talk about Stitzel-Weller and Stitzel-Weller whiskey, we mean whiskey made at the distillery in Shively that was built shortly after the end of Prohibition and ceased distilling in 1992, regardless of the plant's 'official' name at any given point in time, or its ownership.

Chuck, where in Shively was the distillery? I grew up in Valley Station, and I don't remember any distillery in Shively. I do remember a small distillery off of Orell road though, in Southern Jefferson county.

[wku88]

I would say that was exactly it if I had to guess. Sally VanWinkle Campbell states that a needed capital investment and updating of physical plant had a lot to do with the sale of Stitzel-Weller in 1972.

The Warehouses there are being used by Makers and HH. If someone were hardy enough and had deep enough pockets the plant itself perhaps could be bought.

Does anyone know who the actual owner at present is?

Immediately there is an asbestos removal problem, I 've been told.

There's just a lot of romance connected with the old site.Also by the time it closed the water was sourced from Louisville Water company, the aquafier has become polluted and was used only for cooling.

I guess the question is, "will it ever run again?" The safe money is on "Probably not".

Which "old site". Bobby? I know that the old Samuels site has HH and MM warehouses, and the ol spring Uncle Art used for the Samuel's Springs water biz was not used after he stopped due to supply issues. You saying pollution was the main reason? BTW, when I get up there again, I have a brick from the old smokestack for ya:grin:

[cowdery]

Diageo still owns the Stitzel-Weller plant.

[bobbyc]

Which "old site". Bobby? I know that the old Samuels site has HH and MM warehouses

I'm speaking of Stitzel Weller here. There are still a couple of SW warehousemen on site and I speak to a fellow who sees them often and he told me Makers are using some of those warehouses, and Heaven Hill is too.

I'll brush off the brick and put it with my bourbobunker. That will get you a drink for sure, Thanks!

[cowdery]

Every time I've been by SW lately there has been a lot of activity. I think Maker's is doing more than just warehousing there, possibly some bottling and distribution. It makes sense, since SW is a lot more accessible than MM and it would be more cost effective to simply bottle and ship from there whiskey that was warehoused there, rather than shipping those barrels all the way back to Loretto. Also, the sheer numbers of people there suggest more than simple warehousing.

I didn't know HH was using some of the warehouses, but that makes sense.

These days, anybody who has managed to keep a usable warehouse on an old distillery site has tenants. The only reason Beam and others are building new warehouses is because every other possible location is being used.

The exception is masonry warehouses, which some people don't like. Heaven Hill has several at the Bernheim site but they won't put whiskey in them. They use them for aging Christian Brothers brandy.

The warehouses down at the Old Taylor and Old Crow distlleries were being used but they aren't now. If there are any barrels still there, they'll be gone soon. The warehouses there are in poor condition and that valley is too humid for good aging. That has, obviously, put strain on the remaining available locations.

Any of you out there with some "mad money" might want to consider buying or leasing a hill top in Kentucky with good highway access, build some rack houses on it and go into the leased warehouse business. It would be a relatively cheap way to get into the bourbon business.

[cowdery]

As for SW ever operating again, I have been told that asbestos abatement is the biggest obstacle. The still, however, has not been dismantled.

From what I hear, it just makes more sense to add capacity to an existing plant than to build or restore another one. Most places aren't limited by their still capacity but by other things, such as their fermenter capacity. As I wrote in the last issue of WHISKY, the issue is the financial risk of predicting what demand will be like six to ten years from now. Considering the taxes you have to pay, it's a big risk to increase production using existing capacity. The risk of making a capital investment on top of that is huge. Unfortunately, a whiskey distillery isn't much good for anything else unlike, say, a bottling line which is a lot more versatile.

[Sijan]

The exception is masonry warehouses, which some people don't like. Heaven Hill has several at the Bernheim site but they won't put whiskey in them. They use them for aging Christian Brothers brandy.

Doesn't Buffalo Trace use masonry rickhouses?

Thanks for all the info, btw.

[cowdery]

Doesn't Buffalo Trace use masonry rickhouses?

Buffalo Trace likes to say they have rickhouses of every type. Their oldest warehouses are red brick but they also have several steel-clads.

Several distilleries use masonry rickhouses. All of the warehouses at Brown-Forman in Shively are masonry and the one at Woodford is limestone.

Distilleries in the cities tended to build masonry warehouses and group them close together. The choice of masonry, I assume, was for security and the grouping together was because of the cost of land. They also will tend to have fans and heating systems. This is a generalization, of course. The Brown-Forman distillery is very close to Stitzel-Weller and while the former uses masonry, the later uses steel-clads.

It's actually Heaven Hill that's a little unusual in disdaining the masonry warehouses it happens to own.

[Sijan]

Thanks for the info. The only two distilleries I have toured were Buffalo Trace and Labrot & Graham (now Woodford), and I thought the rickhouses I saw there were made of brick/stone.

Are Buffalo Trace's steel-clads at another location, or did I just miss them?

[cowdery]

Are Buffalo Trace's steel-clads at another location, or did I just miss them?

They are all there, but it is a very large site.

[jvanwinkle]

BT has one ironclad warehouse-it is also heated, unlike S/W & Heaven Hill.

Julian