Holy Grail

[cowdery]

The discussion about the Hirsch 16 gold foil got me thinking about this, but it comes up all the time.

There are people -- you know who you are -- who are on a quest for the whiskey version of the holy grail, that one bottle that stands above all others. For many, the only way they can think of to identify it is age, maybe proof, maybe utter rarity become it is from a defunct distillery.

Sometimes this last one manifests itself simply as an obscure name.

Recently on eBay, someone (I suspect we would know him by his Teutonic lilt) was selling part of his collection. It consisted almost entirely of bourbons aged 20 years or more from non-distiller bottlers. Though he was selling it as a set, the average price was $150/bottle.

People, maybe the whiskey holy grail exists, maybe it doesn't, but it definitely will not be a 20+ year-old bourbon from a non-distiller bottler. Most of that stuff is too woody, some of it is undrinkable, and almost none of it is worth the price. Most of it is stuff Heaven Hill made and won't sell as anything you can trace back to them. Figure it out.

I know the problem is that ignorant people think American whiskey is just like scotch, though even there older is not necessarily better. The Hirsch/Michter products happen to be older bourbons that are very good, as are the Van Winkles, but they are exceptions to the rule.

A fool and his money are soon parted, and we're not supposed to feel badly about that, but I do feel a duty now and then to put the truth out there for any fool who might be inclined to be a little less foolish.

[jsgorman]

I 'collect' older bourbons as a part of Americana -- though I'd be hard-pressed to spend more than $150 for anything other than Very Very Old Fitz (and would love to find that at $150).

I've opened an occasional bottle and find that I'd agree with your assessment of most older, vintage bourbons. I need to post my tasting notes, but I purchased with my brother a number of AMS 17YO Bourbon from 1933 and we got together to taste the bourbon and while it wasn't bad (much, much better than the questionable Michters 86 I opened this week) -- it was very woody. That being said, there is something to be said for having the opportunity to taste bourbon as it was drank by our forefathers. Same with wine, I'd love to try a bottle of Bordeaux from Thomas Jefferson's wine cellar -- but I'm sure it won't be half as good as a decent bottle from 1986 or 2000...

[Vange]

All this Davinci Code stuff, the recent Hirsch gold foil top discussion, followed by Chuck's posting entitled Holy Grail have made me want to chime in here. There probably isn't a universal Holy Grail bourbon, I can definitely agree to that. I do however think there is certainly a category of bourbons that could be deemed "holy grail" bourbons. I think I even started a thread awhile ago trying to accumulate a list of these "holy grail" bourbons when I was a newbie to this world and this great forum.

If I had to think of a few that I assume (don't kill me here if some of you hate the 2 I list) would get overwhelming support by many members of this forum as being great bourbons and at the same time being so very difficult to find, I would select Hirsch 20 and VVOF.

When I found my Hirsch 20 on a shelf way up high (10 feet up) with dust all over it, my heart literally fluttered and skipped a beat. I couldn't believe what I was looking at! A piece of history and to me a holy grail bourbon.

Maybe I am nuts, maybe I get too caught up in the lore and mystique surrounding some of these fine bourbons. Whatever it is, it keeps me hunting and drinking bourbon. Cheers.

[ratcheer]

I have no doubt as to what my "holy grail" bourbon is.

Until last summer, it was Rock Hill Farms. I finally got a bottle on a trip to Kentucky. It is open and highly enjoyed, but only on special occasions. It was just too hard to get.

Since then, my clear target has been Wild Turkey 12-year old, whichever style or label. I saw a bottle in Atlanta about five years ago and I could still kick myself for not buying it. A couple of years ago, I even went out of my way to go back to the same store, but of course, it was gone.

Tim

[bluesbassdad]

Tim,

I'm going to try to help you out here.

Don't waste your time looking for Wild Turkey 12 y/o. It wasn't all that great to begin with. Anything I may have written to the contrary in the past was probably the result of my falling for all the hype.

Now the occasional bottle you may find will probably be priced about double what Rock Hill Farms goes for. Can anything possibly be twice as good as Rock Hill Farms?

So forget about Wild Turkey 12 y/o, and sleep well, my friend. You're not missing anything.

Of course, if you happen to find a bottle at a price you're willing to pay, you'll see for yourself, one way or the other. Just don't say I didn't warn you.

I hope this helps. :grin:

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[ThomasH]

I agree with the assessment of Wild Turkey 12. If you want a Holy Grail bourbon with Wild Turkey on the label, try getting a bottle of Russells Reserve 101, not that is holy grail bourbon!

Thomas

[SBOmarc]

Right now being very new at this, I feel fortunate to have in my stash some fine bottles. I know myself well enough to know that I will continue the search for that "one" bottle. For me the Holy Grail of bourbon will be defined not just by the bottle, or the label. My Holy Grail will be that bottle, at that time, with the people, in that place which will never be duplicated.

[T47]

I'm along the lines of SBOmarc. I am pretty easy in that I have found something to enjoy in almost all the Bourbons I have tried. At this point for me the Holy Grail will be anything I get to sample some day at the Gazebo with all you fine folks who contribute so much here. To actually enjoy a fine drink in more than your cyber company will be something else indeed.

:toast:

[Hedmans Brorsa]

Yipee! Trendy at last!

Your post is, more or less, a concentrate on my thoughts, Chuck. One would almost be fooled to think that you have begun to read my posts.

My Holy Grail bourbon, BTW, is Very Old Barton. Howzabout that for non-glamorous aspirations?

[DrinkyBanjo]

I agree with the assessment of Wild Turkey 12. If you want a Holy Grail bourbon with Wild Turkey on the label, try getting a bottle of Russells Reserve 101, not that is holy grail bourbon!

Thomas

Instead of suggesting 'Holy Grail' bourbon's that are not readily available, RR101 is scare in my parts but luckily I have two in storage, why not suggest one that is on the shelves now?

For me that would be the current Rare Breed. I doubt that anyone would deny that this is one helluva bottle so get it before it becomes rare.

[Gillman]

I think Holy Grail means something different to different people. Some collect bottles because they are collectors and may not open them unless they have an extra. Some open everything. Some want to taste history, e.g., I was curious about Old Taylor and Grandad in the 70's when National Distillers made them partly because I remember them being very good then. So I got some and tried them. I do think they were better than the equivalents today but primarily I was interested to try them to see if they matched what I remembered from that time. Some people seek prized bottles said to be very good and rare - Hirsch 16 and 20 are both. I agree with Chuck that rarely though will there be a "eureka" taste and that most older bourbons are not better just because they are older. The reason in my view bourbon flavors don't dramatically change or vary is because bourbon is legally defined (as to how it is made): even changes over time in production methods, yeasts, etc. can't really alter its fundamental approach. As good as the new BT Experimental bottlings may be, it's still bourbon. The same for S-W bourbon from the era when its distilling-out proofs were lower. I've had some fine tastes (e.g. an Old Weller from the 60's) but it is still bourbon whiskey. I feel I've vatted up samples as good as the best oldies I've tasted. So, I believe everyone has their own definition of Holy Grail. But just to "answer the question", I'd say that the Stagg Fall '05 bottle (which I've now tasted from a few times, it is a friend's bottle) is or is very close to the best bourbon I ever had and if I saw a bottle on the shelf I'd buy it.

[jspero]

There are people -- you know who you are -- who are on a quest for the whiskey version of the holy grail, that one bottle that stands above all others.

My "holy grail" is not a bourbon at all, but a rye. Sherwood Maryland Rye was produced in Westminster, MD at some point. A (the?) rick house and some other buildings still stand and are used for other purposes today (one of them is an EXCELLENT Italian restaurant). I'd love to find a bottle in good shape just to try the home town product.

Based on my admittedly limited experience, I tend to agree about older bourbons. They are a little too woody for my taste. I tend to prefer something in the range of 10-15 years. Older does not always equal better to me.

Jay

[bluesbassdad]

Upon later reading I see that my post needed a "wink" emoticon after the first sentence. I was in an impish mood when I wrote it, but it surely doesn't read that way. I was trying to suggest that sometimes a sour grapes attitude is a useful way to deal with the scarcity of a product.

The only note of seriousness that crept in is the reference to the relative prices of Wild Turkey 12 y/o and Rock Hill Farms. IMO, one's first bottle of WT12 might be worth, say, $100, just for the new experience. It might even turn out to be a once-in-a-lifetime experience. However, I would be surprised if anyone decided that it's worth two or more times the cost of Rock Hill Farms for subsequent purchases.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[OscarV]

though even there older is not necessarily better. The Hirsch/Michter products happen to be older bourbons that are very good, as are the Van Winkles, but they are exceptions to the rule.

Why do some bourbons like the Van Winkles take to the barrel good over a long period and others don't?

Everybody's mash bill is close to being the same.

What are the other factors in such a similar process, I mean real factors that you acually put your finger on.

Now here is what comes across as a silly question.

What if Van Winkle sent a vat of cooked mash to Heaven Hill, and they (HH that is) distilled it, barreled and aged it for 20 years. Would it be that different? If so, are the stills that radically different? Is the sun and wind that different from Frankfort and Bardstown?

I am not asking this with tounge in cheek, I am serious, even though the above questions might sound stupid.

Oscar

[Nebraska]

I think you might not be too far off with that sun and wind statement. I do know from reading posts here and there that temperature and more specifically air flow around the barrels have a very big impact on the end product.

[Gillman]

I always wonder about air flow. If Knob Creek is a metal-clad warehouse bourbon today, is that why it is the best Beam Brands makes? The windows allow air to flow over and around the casks. The huge buildings that have no windows: how can they achieve that effect even with good or adapted HVAC?

Gary

[Nebraska]

Industrial Fans?

[Gillman]

But I wonder if it is really then outdoor air such as flows freshly through a traditional warehouse with windows that can be opened and closed at will. It can't I think be the same, but maybe I am wrong..

Gary

[OscarV]

OK,OK,OK,....... let me re-word the question,....

Why does the Pappy's at 20 years is not woody, and lesser aged bourbons do taste woody?

[BourbonJoe]

Why does the Pappy's at 20 years is not woody, and lesser aged bourbons do taste woody?

I suspect they were aged on a much lower floor in the rickhouse, possibly the ground floor. Just my guess.

Joe :usflag:

[etohchem]

Since the thread is hijaked and I just to throw another wtench into the works and see what some of your ideas are...

Why is it that black mold (angels breath) grows on the rickhouses and on nearly everything standing still at a distillery but not on the barrels themselves nor on the ricks. Sunlight is not a factor as whiskey filled barrels outside will not get mold on them and barrels by windows don't get mold? I have my theories but want to here some from ya'll.

Etohchem

[etohchem]

And to correct OscarV, mash bills are not all the same. Pappy's is a wheated bourbon. Wheat takes extra aging much better than rye bourbons.

Metal clad vs limestone vs brick vs tile. Heat conduction and insulation is a factor. Air flow definatly affects the micro climates, but for floor to floor consistency it is about temperature conduction. High houses fluctuate and get more sun therefor hotter and faster aging. lower floors-consistent temperature-stagg, PVW, ER17YO.

All of this is generalities of course, Mother Nature loves to throw a quick aging floor into the middle of a warehouse just for fun. Every distillery knows how their houses and floors age, but nobody has any conclusive proof on why

[Gillman]

On black mold: I would hypothesize that tannins in the wood (barrels, ricks) inhibit growth of the mold. At first I thought the answer was that a higher ethanol concentration in and around the barrels would "kill" the mold, yet I've seen such molds on the inside portion of old corks (and not necessarily that old, I can see it developing on corks in bottles I've kept for just a couple of years or so). So it must be the acidic nature of wood. Now, very old barrels slowly become denuded of their tannic acid, which is why, i) they start to fall apart, ii) impart off tastes (sometimes) to very old whiskey, i.e., the lack of tannic preservative starts to rot the wood, hence the "rancio" (mushroom-like) taste of some old spirits. So if I am right, I would expect that some mold may develop on the oldest barrels, say barrels held 20 years and over.

Comments?

Gary

[bobbyc]

Why is it that black mold (angels breath) grows on the rickhouses and on nearly everything standing still at a distillery but not on the barrels themselves nor on the ricks.

It must be a function of transpiring Water or Alcohol. I have old barrels around the grill ( Look at my Avatar) and they have a good growth of mold on them.

[cowdery]

Since the mold grows on trees, it certainly doesn't eschew wood. My theory would be that the ratio of alcohol to air is too high on the barrel surface but just right on the walls outside.

Differences in aging are the same as differences in real estate values. It's all about location, location, location.

The original point of this thread has gotten lost. My point was that over-aged and over-priced private label bottlings do not represent what is most desirable in American whiskey and people who make such products their Holy Grail are deluded.