Holy Grail

[Gillman]

I find the question of mold growth interesting. My understanding is that the black mold that grows on the stone and metal exterior of distillery buildings is a special mold that feeds on or has some relationship to alcohol. It is not the same as molds in nature you see on trees, and I wonder if this special distillery mold can't exist in a tannic acid environment. As for Bobby's decorative barrels, maybe weathered wood loses its tannin through ... weathering. If a low degree of alcohol concentration was the answer, why does the mold appear seemingly on the underside of old and not so old corks? It was all over the cork underside on the 1919 Belmont Randy gave me, on the side exposed that is to the spirit which was 100 proof.

Alternate or possibly cumulative explanation: molds need (I think) water to live and grow. The alcohol concentration may be too high in the barrel to make the water work for this purpose. On the outside of the barrel and in the warehouse, it may be too dry, or too dry for too much of the year. Why though does the underside of the corks get blackened? Maybe enough moisture gets in from the outside. Or maybe that blackness is not alcohol mold but something else (oxidation of some kind?).

Gary

[OscarV]

[that over-aged and over-priced private label bottlings do not represent what is most desirable in American whiskey and people who make such products their Holy Grail are deluded.

[hookfinger]

The older the better assumption is probably due to fact that scotch whisky over 20 years is not only common but what is desired.

Don't forget the much cooler climate of scotland requires/allows much longer maturation times

[chasking]

that over-aged and over-priced private label bottlings do not represent what is most desirable in American whiskey and people who make such products their Holy Grail are deluded.

The older the better assumption is probably due to fact that scotch whisky over 20 years is not only common but what is desired.

I think Chuck C.'s statement applies to Scotch too. It ages more slowly than bourbon, true, but after 20 years or so you are still rolling the dice with any given cask whether it will be past its prime. I would be very leery of buying a single-cask bottling of Scotch at that point---I suppose some independent bottlers are trustworthy, but I have gotten burned. Distillery-label bottlings, where they can vat multiple casks and have access to the entire warehouse to pull from, are probably a safer bet. But IMHO most single malts get pretty darn good in the 15-18 year old range, and some might get better beyond that age, but maybe not. (Of course, some older malts are really fantastic. But separating the wheat from the chaff at those ages can be a pretty expensive proposition.)

I like Scotch but it cannot be denied that there is a snooty, snobby element to the Scotch enthusiast community. I suspect that a lot of really old, expensive bottles of malt whiskey are sold to people who never intend to open them, or if they do, the whiskey inside benefits from the 'emperor's new clothes' effect: "I paid $300 (or more) for this bottle of Scotch, ergo, it must be nectar of the gods. My gut feeling that it is thin and woody just shows my own lack of discernment." My point being, the fact that really old Scotch is desired doesn't necessarily correspond to really old Scotch being what's desirable, if you get my meaning.

FWIW, my "holy grail" whiskey is a pretty simple one: Fleischmann's Rye. Later this year I am going up to Wisconsin (the only place it's sold, according to the Barton's rep I spoke to at WhiskeyFest), and while I'm there I'm going to make finding a bottle something of a mission.

[Gillman]

I agree with you. But as you said too there are exceptions. Highland Park's 25 year old is very good. So are the Ardbeg distillery bottlings over 20 years (some just don't taste that old for whatever reason). And there are other examples.

In general, IMO, where aged malt whiskies (18 years plus) find their place is in blending and vatting. The logic of an undertone of oak flavour which isn't dominant and tannic and blends well with younger, fruitier and/or smokier whiskeys is hard to gainsay. This is why the great aged blends are deservedly famous (e.g. Johnnie Walker Gold Label, Chivas' Royal Salute, etc.). The same logic applies to other countries' whiskies. Crown Royal is put together on the same idea, it is a combination of some very old whiskeys and some mid-aged ones (and some of these, straight) on a frame of aged but not overaged high proof whisky.

The logic can also apply to straight U.S. whiskey. A blend of straight whiskeys was once the industry category for this. Some fine whiskeys were, I believe, produced. E.g., Tim kindly served a 40's Four Roses of this nature at recent Gazebo which was superb (like an American equivalent to a sherryish rich Scots vatted malt). In effect, this is still being done at the simpler level of mingling within one distillery, but scope exists to create it amongst a range of straight whiskeys from different distilleries.

This is an idea for the independent whiskey merchants. The logic is there IMO especially when aged whiskey stocks are said to be at a premium.

Gary

[wku88]

Getting back to Chuck's first post: I agree! As with most "enthusiast" endeavors (Cuban cigars come to mind), it isn't so much the quality of the product as it is the percieved value based on rarity and infamy. There are very few straight bourbons that I will not buy again with my money, and several that I will not buy because they are simply too expensive. I can't imagine Stagg being worth the exhorbitant price(for this cheap skate). Fine whisky? I'll accept the reviews of all here who have tried it and say yes--maybe even spring for a shot to try it in a bar-- but I can't see me buying a bottle to enjoy on the back porch on a spring evening.

Having said that, my personal Holy Grail would be a bottle of Very Old Barton 86 proof, 8 year old. For purely personal reasons. It was my dad's drink of choice, and I would like to sit down with him and have a drink to celebrate him beating cancer sometime before he leaves this world.

[Ambernecter]

I have been to the mountaintop and I have seen throught the eyes of a Master distiller...

The name of my Holy Grail Bourbon is Rock Hill Farms!

I agree with Chuck that there are some people who take things a tad too far but over in England the drinks that may be cheap and cheerful in the USA (and good value to boot) are very pricey and ones income can be eaten up at an alarming rate, if not monitored closely!

As a friend of mine (a Scotch collector) says, "I don't care how old or expensive it is - how does it taste!" He tends to open every bottle and sample it's contents.

[DrinkyBanjo]

I believe I will be acquiring a bottle of RHF's this weekend for my first Father's Day. I will hopefully sample on Sunday night.

[tsangster]

Since then, my clear target has been Wild Turkey 12-year old, whichever style or label. I saw a bottle in Atlanta about five years ago and I could still kick myself for not buying it. A couple of years ago, I even went out of my way to go back to the same store, but of course, it was gone.

Tim

I saw a bottle of WT 12yo here in Athens, GA about a month ago. If you find yourself in the Atlanta or Athens area frequently I'd be glad to secure it for you if its still there.

[BourbonJoe]

My Holy Grail of bourbon is WT-12 Gold Foil. I've been trying to find one for years, with no luck. If anyone knows of any or has any to spare, you could sure make this old man happy.

Joe :usflag:

[Chaz7]

The original point of this thread has gotten lost. My point was that over-aged and over-priced private label bottlings do not represent what is most desirable in American whiskey and people who make such products their Holy Grail are deluded.

I agree Chuck. Yes PVW 20 yo is my favorite, but price and age for me aren't as key. Here for me in Colorado it would be Four Roses, Ancient Ancient Age 10YEAR old, and even Very Old Barton's; all inexpensive, all in many of your bunker's. But nowhere to be found in Colorado. Yesterday, I drove 70 miles to pick up two bottles of PVW 20 yo, on sale for $62.95. So, that was my quest. But when I arrived, I found 1 bottle of Rock Hill, Blanton's on sale for $34.95, William Larue on sale for $43.00. All of these represent highly desirable "grails", but only because of their sale prices; PVW 15 yo was only $33.95. All of these, EXCEPT PVW 20 yo and Rock Hill are found here, 70 miles south. Because of budget constraints (my wife would Kill me if I spent more)

I passed on the Rock Hill; so now I have a new "holy grail" to seek out. Will it still be there when I return? Who knows, that's the thrill of the chase.

[CrispyCritter]

I like Scotch but it cannot be denied that there is a snooty, snobby element to the Scotch enthusiast community. I suspect that a lot of really old, expensive bottles of malt whiskey are sold to people who never intend to open them, or if they do, the whiskey inside benefits from the 'emperor's new clothes' effect: "I paid $300 (or more) for this bottle of Scotch, ergo, it must be nectar of the gods. My gut feeling that it is thin and woody just shows my own lack of discernment."

Indeed, I've noticed that snootiness sometimes - one Scotch enthusiast site gives very short shrift to bourbon, for instance. I had bought into that mentality myself - until I tried a bottle of Spring Stagg. Needless to say, that opened the bourbon floodgates! Sadly, my brother-in-law, who likes a good Scotch (especially an Ardbeg!) as much as I do, didn't really care for '04/129 Stagg. I probably should have started him out with Weller 12/90 or VG90. Keep in mind, he's a UK native, though...

I've never put down more than $100 (pre-tax) for a bottle of any kind of beverage yet - but I've still had several "holy grails" both in bourbon and Scotch form. Bourbons like the Staggs I've had, Hirsch 16 (I haven't opened my gold wax bottle yet), ER101, RR101... also ryes like Saz 18 and VWFRR. For Scotch "grails," Glenrothes 1974 and Ardbeg 1977, the Campbeltown Loch 25yo blend (which contains some much older whiskies in the blend), Glendronach 15, and the Alloa 40yo single-grain have all been out of this world. I regret not getting a spare 'Rothes 74 when I had the chance! I have one A77 and one CL25 in the bunker, though.

Note that Scotch grain whisky needs lots of aging, due to the high distilling proof, cool climate, and used cooperage... but the results can be amazing.

[Sijan]

I have an extra bottle of WT12 gold foil that I'd be willing to part with if you have something really good to trade (WT12 is one of my favorite bourbons). In fact, one of my two WT12 gold foil bottles is still in the canister and original tissue wrap.

I also have 3 bottles of the regular 'split label" WT12, one of which I'd be willing to part with for a really good trade.