Tasting Notes: Is Fakery a Good Thing?

[bluesbassdad]

The proud owner of an obscure bottling stated in another thread that creating tasting notes is beyond his ability. Paraphrasing, "I either like it or I don't."

I find it hard to believe that anyone who has tasted even as few as two bottlings can't find a single word to distinguish between them. But I could be wrong.

At the other end of the spectrum of tasters are the professionals and quite a few members here, who can liken a bourbon to spices I'm not sure I've ever tasted, naturally occuring scents of forest and swamp, and even fine fabric. Elsewhere here I have proposed putting such skills to the test with a two-panel, blind tasting event. One panel creates tasting notes; the other tries to match the bourbon to the notes. I am skeptical that the number of matches would exceed pure chance. But I could be wrong.

Between those two extremes are the rest of us, who try with varying degrees of success to communicate our experiences for the benefit of others and maybe a little bit of personal pride.

At times I've resorted to looking at the list of flavor elements on this site and forcing myself to choose from it. That experience has reminded me of a self-help seminar I attended back in the 1970's. When a particpant blanked out when asked to describe his feelings about something, the stock response was, "Well, if you did have feelings about X, what would they be?" IOW, no one was allowed to decline to participate, no matter what. Surprisingly (or not), once the person started talking, before long real feelings began to surface.

What do you think? Is forcing oneself to pick from a list likely to lead to valuable tasting notes, now or in the future? Or is that approach an exercise in self-delusion?

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[DrinkyBanjo]

Well let me qualify that for you a little bit more. It's not that I cannot do it with bourbon it's with most things. My wife might say something is savory or something like that and I'll have no idea what she's talking about. Obviously when I taste Bakers I can get hints of vanilla etc but from there I don't know.

BTW I drink a lot of different bourbons so that is not the issue. However, if I had to describe PWV 15, the last bourbon I had, I would not be able to explain those flavors.

Dunno.

[DrinkyBanjo]

Actually, I'm going to print out the flavor elements and take a stab at this. We'll see.

[Gillman]

Some people, otherwise highly literate and articulate, have no ability to describe tastes. Recently a friend of 30 years standing and I went out for dinner at a pub. He ordered a Guinness, draught. I asked him why he liked it. First he tasted and he said, this is really good. I said, "Why? Describe the taste". He was flummoxed, couldn't do it. I said, is it like coffee? He said, no. Is it like Ovaltine, or caramel? He said no. I said is it bitter and sweet? He said, yes, that's it, bitter and sweet. Had I not described it (using a very simple schema to say the least) he'd still have no words for it. But on the other hand, I find he likes good beers and in general dislikes beers I think are crap. So we agree. I know "why", he "doesn't".

Gary

[Nebraska]

I think at first it seems a little intimidating trying to describe what you're tasting (kind of that old school room thing, am I going to get it wrong in front of the class). I tried to describe a pour and could get most of it own my own, but I did have a flavor I thought I knew but could not describe. I went to the chart and was able to pick out a couple of flavors from that list that came close to what I thought it was. I did think it was important not to read anybody else's tasting notes the first time, just to ensure that I wasn't influenced by anything I had read.

I also went back and checked the format that most people use and used that as a template to format my own observations after I had made my notes. That also made it easier.

I also noticed when I take my first sip at room temp, I don't get a very broad spectrum of flavors. Generally I then add a couple of cubes and the flavors come pouring out. I think experimenting with a pour (adding a splash, cube or straight helps you find flavors and intensifies them.

I think it's important to understand too, that the majority of the time, it's good to just sit back and enjoy and not think about it. You pretty much know when you're in the mood to try and take some serious tasting notes. In other words, your head needs to be in the right place.

[tgriff]

I think "tasting" is difficult. To describe a flavor one tastes in any drink or food requires experience with that flavor in other contexts -i.e. different drinks or food. It also requires the memory to link the past experiences with the current experience to say, "hey, that's vanilla" or whatever. Some people are better at that game than others. I think, too, that it requires concentration to discern individual flavors among the all the intermingled flavors of bourbon (or wine, or beer).

I am continuously amazed at how the bourbon experts on SB.com describe what they are drinking. I only hope I can reach half that level of appreciation....

[Nebraska]

I am going to add I would hard pressed to know what "barrel tones" are, unless we are saying woody, with perhaps a tinge of metal hoop.:slappin: I really feel the bung coming through in this particular bottle...

I'm cracking myself up...lol

[RedVette]

I can handle, leather, oak, vanilla, even grassy flavors. But when someone mentions "hints of blueberry waffles with menthol overtones", I'm out of here.

Is blueberry better than blackberry?

[bluesbassdad]

Is blueberry better than blackberry?

Rob,

Yes. No seeds.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[wadewood]

OK, here is a good quote about tasting notes:

"We don't taste lemon grass, fresh cut tobacco, or leche nuts in our bourbon, and we don't spout forth endless streams of redundant superlatives regarding our beloved liquor"

Anybody want to guess who said this and when?

[Gillman]

I don't know who said that, Wade, it sounds perhaps like a long-time distiller. And that's fine, he or whoever said it doesn't have to find those things in whiskey. That doesn't mean tasters who use an expressive vocabulary are out to lunch. The great whiskey writers write of whiskey in ways similar to wine writers, from whom they took their cue. This helps a lot of people make their way through the whiskey thickets. In fact, it introduced a lot of people to whiskey, period. That is why Murray, Jackson, etc, sell a lot of books. In saying this I fully respect people who are still learning, or indeed have no interest, to describe tastes. It does take time, for those interested, to pick out why they like something or don't. One of the reasons I got interested was to describe to others what I liked. If I just said, try this, this is great, they wouldn't have as much information as if I said, this has a hint of wintergreen, like gum with that flavour, which comes from the rye component, see?. But absolutely you can enjoy and make great whiskey without caring a darn for any of this.

Gary

[Gillman]

Just to respond to something Mark said, sure I can kick back and not focus on taste. I find that approach helpful to get down second grade drinks, in fact. But seriously, I understand the point and it is very valid. As Randy B. once said, there is a difference between tasting and just drinkin'. He was talking about what bourbons to choose for what occasion and I can't put it any better.

I want to say too for those interested in how to learn to describe whiskey tastes and the main categories of description used, there is no better guide than the pages on the subject in Charles Cowdery's "Bourbon, Straight". Chuck, a long-time member of this board, has scoped the subject completely. The book is (quite apart from this specific area) must reading for any bourbon enthusiast.

Gary

[Nebraska]

That would be Jim in 1999, a day that will live in infamy. I believe the first post?

[Gillman]

It was Jim (I believe), I recall that now.

I think though he was being a little tongue in cheek.

Gary

[Nebraska]

I had to laugh because the next post starts..." hey Jim kind of quiet around here...", that sure changed.

[T47]

I like the Tasting Vocabulary List, it certainly helped me to identify flavors that I personally couldn't label (power of suggestion maybe?). I think it is Tim (TNbourbon) who describes flavors in what almost seems poetry at times and reminds me of Garrison Keilor...the drink becomes comforting, more than just flavors, it brings back memories of a moment in time...(power of suggestion agian ?) when I really get time to relax and enjoy a drink I think I can relate to that type of description, problem is those times are too few and far between!

In any event it all helps me to enjoy the pour.

[Hedmans Brorsa]

"We don't taste lemon grass, fresh cut tobacco, or leche nuts in our bourbon, and we don't spout forth endless streams of redundant superlatives regarding our beloved liquor"

Anybody want to guess who said this and when?

Well, it wasn´t Dave Broom from Whisky Magazine, that´s for sure.

[cowdery]

Whenever one tries to write about any kind of art, one is hampered by the limits of words. What about the great philosophers, trying to put religious faith or fundamental human consciousness into words? What about the poet or novelist who tries to describe the deepest pain or most manifest exhilaration of the human spirit? There really are no words for any of those things and the one truth that people who try to do it have it accept is that they will always fail, albeit by varying degrees, and that chance to possibly fail just a little bit less the next time is why we keep trying.

[bluesbassdad]

You remind me of the quip, "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."

Before replying I decided to do a Google search, looking for the background or origin of the quote. To my surprise "dancing about architecture" yielded 312,000 hits, including one for a band in Brisbane, Australia by that name.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[Ambernecter]

"Running through wet leaves" and "reminds me of Scout camp" in a review of a certain Scotch were the quotes that made me realise Michael Jackson was talking complete s*&t!

The other thing I noticed in Whiskey magazine was that in ther side by side reviews for the same whiskey, Jackson and the other taster very rarely had tasting notes that were even slightly similar.

He is not all bad though - at least he loved RHF!

[Gillman]

Everyone views this in their own way, to be sure.

Personally I find Jackson's descriptions good guides. As Chuck said, language is inherently limited in its ability to convey tastes and many other things. But within the limitations, I feel Jackson does a very good job. True, his descriptions don't usually accord as such with what the others say in that magazine. But I find in substance they end up agreeing most of the time, they just say it differently. Also, Jackson in my view usually says it best, he's been doing it for 30 years and is a very good writer.

Wet leaves? A damp vegetal smell, in other words; some whiskies have that. Scout camp? There I'm not sure but if I saw the full quote I think I could figure out what he meant. Maybe he was talking about the odor of old canvas. When I went to camp the big thing was to buy knapsacks. They were canvas and mostly war-surplus (from the Second World War and Korean War). The tents on the trips out from camp were made from similar materials or had the same smell when wet. He may have meant that especially if British scouts bunked in tents at the time.

I'll say though I understand fully what people mean when they aren't interested to get into the subject to this degree or can't see how some descriptions match up to the subject. I'm like that myself about many things. E.g. I like cheese, and coffees, and I'm sure books have been written about the various specific tastes they have but I don't think of them in those terms. I know I like cheddar, I like some gouda, I like mocha java but I don't like the one that chain with the red sign serves except their dark roast, I don't like most goat cheeses, etc. I could probably train myself to learn a vocabulary of cheese and coffee tastes and smells but I don't have the interest. Chuck says in his book that the whiskey tasting vocabulary is not mysterious or highly complex to learn and he shows how to do it for those who want. And for those who are not much interested that's fine, they can still enjoy the experience their way, like my friend does with beer, like I do with coffee.

Gary

[chasking]

I'm curious what you guys and gals think about the suggestive power of tasting notes. The idea underlying this thread, that some people have a hard time putting into words the flavors they taste in whiskey, particularly a complex one, I think may lead some, when presented with, say, "lemon grass" , to say, "Oh, yeah, that's it!" But does that effect go further, to the point where if someone who purports to know what he's doing says, "Taste the cloves in this, and smell the aroma of old leather!" people will believe that they are tasting cloves and smelling leather, whether or not those tastes/aromas are really there? It would be interesting (if I were a malicious person) to give a tasting and suggest utterly unrelated flavors, and see if people then claimed to taste the same thing. "Ah, yes, peanut butter, and a hint of Dr. Pepper!"

There's a Scotch malt whisky distillery called Tomatin, and I actually read a book that claimed its whisky had the flavor of tomatoes.

[Gillman]

What you propose is interesting Chuck as an experiment. All of us are suggestible to a point. I think blind tasting in a different way tests the ability to judge a liquor properly. And it is challenging, no question. But this does not invalidate the tasting art. There are too many points of agreement on how the great whiskeys taste for the tasting art to be overly subjective. It falls mid-way between total subjectivity and a truly scientific flavour analysis, the type that employs reference samples of typical flavors or the flavor wheel used by industry tasting labs I understand (a picture of one is in a book on malt whisky written some years ago by whisky writer Philip Hill).

Gary

[tachyonshuggy]

"Running through wet leaves" and "reminds me of Scout camp" in a review of a certain Scotch were the quotes that made me realise Michael Jackson was talking complete s*&t!

There was a funny SNL sketch a few weeks back about a wine-tasting night out for some friends. They used words that I've heard before ("chewy") interspersed with nonsense words for laughs ("treason").

My gf could not believe that "chewy" was a word I'd heard before WRT wine-tasting. . .actually, I'd read it in whiskey tasting notes

[MattB]

Dave,

I think tasting is a discipline, like anything else--playing the guitar, shooting free throws, etc. If you do it with focus, you can become better at it. Of course, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "worth" the effort. At the same time, there's some natural aptitude involved. Some people are Stevie Ray, and some people are Shaq. But I'm also sure that there's a little element of BS, if only because the nuances of flavor can be so fine. There's a website--can't remember which--that has Murray's and Jackson's (I think) tasting notes side-by-side, and it's interesting to see how differently they sometimes describe the same stuff.

BTW: I read a really interesting article on Robert Parker a few years back in the Atlantic. Discussed the way in which Parker's personal taste preferences have shaped the (politics of the) wine industry as a whole, but also highlighted his personal history--blue-collar family, sort of stumbled into the fact that he had an incredible pallet.