organic mash bourbons?

[jinenjo]

A couple of months back at the San Francisco whiskey expo I couldn't get into Lincoln Henderson's class at the Suntory tastings. Later when everyone gathered at the nearby bar it was too crowded to hold any significant conversation.

So I'm posing the question to you out in cyberland.

Does anyone know of bourbon or other whiskies made from organic grain?

I've heard that Bruichladdich uses organically grown barley, but from my understading, most if not all of the commercial corn grown in the U.S. has at the very least some genetically modified components to it, which I find quite disturbing. However, I won't get into that particular discussion. This is just a curious inquiry. I'll still continue to enjoy bourbon and rye regardless.

-LB

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

Not bourbon or even whiskey, but Rain Vodka which is made by Buffalo Trace is made from 100% organic corn.

Ed

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

from my understading, most if not all of the commercial corn grown in the U.S. has at the very least some genetically modified components to it, which I find quite disturbing. However, I won't get into that particular discussion. .

-LB

If you want to go in to that disscussion here I suggest that you go to the Off Topic section. I myself am not particularly disturbed my GM, but I wouldn't mind hearing what you have to say about it.

Ed

[bluesbassdad]

Dittos.

I would appreciate a primer on the topic as long as it empasizes provable facts over emotion.

Yours truly,

Dave "Did My Opening Give Me Away?" Morefield

[cowdery]

Regardless of how one feels about GM-anything, the notion that some GM badie could survive the distillation process is nothing short of preposterous, ditto any "organic" properties.

[Barrel_Proof]

that some GM badie could survive the distillation process is nothing short of preposterous

Come on, Chuck: We all know that politically correct corn rises to the top of every fermenter!

[Gillman]

Okay doubters what about Rain vodka? The ad bumph doesn't fail to note the organic corn used. Doesn't from a QC point of view every little bit of quality count and contribute, sometimes imperceptibly, to an extra-fine product?

Gary

[Gillman]

I must say (and sure canned juice isn't distilled spirit) that I had some "organic" tomato juice the other day and was stunned at how much better it was than the regular thing. I would think someone going to the trouble of using organic produce would take extra care in every area of production, so that no doubt plays a role in how good a product like this can be but still I have to think the organic tomatoes made a big difference. I've long been skeptical of the merits of organic anything (and personally believe in the intelligent use of GM products) but this did cause me to take notice.

Gary

[Barrel_Proof]

This is a topic that today's distillers hope will go quietly into that good night.

[cowdery]

First, "organic" and "GM" are two completely different issues.

Second, Rain is, after all, vodka, so from the get-go they're selling a fantasy. How naïve do you have to be to use the fact that something is mentioned in advertising as proof that it makes a substantive contribution to product quality?

[Gillman]

I wouldn't have thought a genetically modified tomato qualifies for organic production (under the various voluntary associations' codes which establish rules for these things). That said, I don't know for sure and am willing to learn more. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

But naive? I don't think so. I am talking about BT which unusually for a distillery gives a lot of production information to consumers. The labels on the new experimental bourbon series is an example, so is the fact BT has said it has two rye-recipe bourbon mashbills and which product falls within each, and so on. If BT suggests organic corn makes a difference I'll take it at face value unless I form my own opinion that it is just "advertising". We get Rain in our market and I'll try it soon and say.

Gary

[gr8erdane]

Isn't this all conjecture anyway? The corn we know today is nothing like the corn that was here when the first Europeans arrived. Whether or not the changes came from a lab or from selecting by hand the better plants to save for next year's planting, the fact is that we can yank back the husk and see nice rows of kernals instead of gaps like a pair of truck stop bought "Bubba Teeth".

[cowdery]

Organic, schmorganic. It's pure ethanol. You can run your car on it. As Sidney Frank taught us, it's about the story, not the product. The product is an afterthought.

The primary supermarket in my neighborhood recently did a major reset and converted the first two aisles to nothing but imported, organic, natural or specialty foods and other products, such as paper products, health and beauty aids, and cleaning supplies. People sell that stuff because people buy it. The customer wants it and will pay a premium for it, so the producers produce it and the retailers retail it.

That is the free market system and I am all for it, but anyone who thinks anyone in that chain of profit-making knows or cares if there is any provable difference or benefit is, yes I'll say it, naïve, credulous, and gullible.

I'll see you at the séance, right after I refill my Enzyte supply.

[Special Reserve]

Organic, schmorganic. It's pure ethanol.

Right on brother!

[Gillman]

I will buy Rain and state my opinion. It's a tougher case with a product distilled to 194-196 proof, obviously. But I am willing to see if I can sense any quality difference that might be attributable to the use of an organic corn mash. The original question was about an organic bourbon mash. That mash would be distilled at less than 160 proof and the chance of enhanced flavor retention is greater than with vodka but I don't rule it out even with vodka (since vodka does not all taste the same to me and the human senses are capable of detecting even very small characteristics in products, e.g., fusel oils at very low concentrations). I have been following in wine circles a debate about wines made from organic materials (there are different terms to describe "organic" in this context). There is a spirited debate and difference of opinion amongst winemakers and wine writers whether organic methods make a difference. Many people think they do, and distillation is another remove but logically the same questions can apply to it IMO. Anyway I need to lay in some vodka and I'll do a taste test and tell people what I think.

Gary

[cowdery]

Even if you do taste a "difference," how can you be confident in attributing it to organic-ness which means, ultimately, what? "Produced without the use of drugs, hormones, or synthetic chemicals," is what one dictionary says, but in reality what is a "synthetic" chemical? There may, in very specific cases, be advantages to using one technique over another and, again in some very specific cases, the superior technique may be something which can be labelled "organic," but most of this mania for organic, natural, etc. is a fetish produced by something like pastoral romanticism or what I might call "technology guilt." I'm willing to consider anything that has been rigorously and scientifically tested, but I am very skeptical of most of these claims, especially the notion that you can taste the absence of "synthetic chemicals" in a product as heavily processed as a distilled spirit. I do not wish to cause offense, but it strikes me as frankly ridiculous.

[Gillman]

My original point was simply that one producer makes note of the use of organic corn in its process. Therefore, I'm prepared to consider that this may enhance the overall quality of its product. The same may be even more true of a bourbon mash: bourbon is distilled at a notably lower proof than vodka.

It's all chemicals ultimately, yes. But different chemicals can result in different tastes.

I'm planning to taste blind three vodkas: one made from corn, Rain; a Polish rye vodka; and a potato vodka. Maybe I can see at least which is the Rain. If I can, that leaves open the possibility I could differentiate Rain from other corn spirits. If the Rain stands out maybe the organic corn mash used played a role. (Materials can make a difference to vodka, e.g., a grape-derived vodka I once tasted had a faint but noticeable vinous hint). Its distinctiveness if any is unlikely to be attributable to the ethanol or only the water.

But even if I don't get any of the vodkas right, that doesn't mean I am wrong in thinking organic corn may make a better vodka than the usual intensively raised corn. BT may have a way of measuring overall characteristics or quality which it knows consumers respond to (at least those who drink the product neat). I may throw in another corn vodka to the test. I think the experiment is worth doing.

As with all my thoughts and ideas, they may be of interest to some more than others.

Gary

[kbuzbee]

I must say (and sure canned juice isn't distilled spirit) that I had some "organic" tomato juice the other day and was stunned at how much better it was than the regular thing.

Gary, we've found the same thing at the roastery.... Organic coffee is, generally speaking, WAY better than the non-organic alternative.... Now as to where this falls in the cause-effect cycle, I can't say.... Maybe the grower gets more for their organic product so they care for it better or choose a better area of the farm??? I could easily see it being unrelated to it being "organic" per se. But it is better.

As to whether any GM, herbacides, pestacides or fertilizer would make it into the distillate, i have no idea. But as you indicate, total quality does place importance on the quality of the individual processes and components and improving any of those is designed to improve the whole. I would support movement in this direction even if the results could not, initially, be directly correlated to the material used. At least something to investigate.

I'm surprized distillers want this issue to disappear. Most industries welcome anything that allows them to differentiate their product (and of course, raise the cost ;-)

Ken

[elkdoggydog]

It's not just total quality- for many people organic is an ethical choice, too. I'm not necessarily one of them, but I am picky about what meat I'll buy, for instance. An animal that enjoyed a higher quality of life and ate better food yields better tasting meat with fewer artificially added hormones in it. I like organic vegetables because they often taste better, but am not always willing to pay a premium for them. For some, eating organic is like eating vegetarian, in that it's an ethical matter of minimizing their impact on the environment, avoiding eating pesticides or hormones, or supporting more sustainable practices (which is not exactly synonomous with organic, but the two often go hand in hand), and it would be useful information for them. Out here in organic central (Bay Area), there are readily available wines and beers made with organic ingredients, and I'm sure they're available elsewhere, too. Applying the same to whiskey is a natural jump from those two. It's fair to ask.

As for GM, it's obviously a tricky issue, and long-term results can't yet be known. I'm not sure what I think about it, but I'm interested to know more.

I think it's easy to be dismissive of this question, but I think it's a good question to ask.

[Special Reserve]

Besides the ethics of the issue and there is more than what meets the eye, ethanol is a product of the produce.

The ethanol produced from "organically" raised corn, wheat, rye, and malt is chemically the same as the ethanol from "non-organically" raised corn, wheat, rye, or malt.

I'm not an alcohol chemist, I'm a chemist that has drunk alcohol.

[smokinjoe]

There's an interesting article in the July Smithsonian Magazine which discusses the incredible success of corn yields since the introduction of synthetically produced ammonium nitrate fertilizer. Apparantly, it's all about "usable" nitrogen. There's lots of it, but it must be combined with hydrogen in order for living things to grow and prosper. Mother Nature can only do so much of this, so fertilizer takes over from there. The writer cites an author who estimates that 2 out of every 5 humans on earth today, would not be alive if not for synthetic fertilizer. Not a bad thought, only we don't get to choose who stays and who goes. But this success comes with costs (pollution from factories that produce the fertilizer, high energy use to produce, runoff into rivers and oceans, etc), which he also discusses.

JOE

[Gillman]

All very valid and useful thoughts... I'd add to those contributed by Special Reserve that the distillation of a corn mash to make grain neutral spirit does not result only in ethanol. There is also water and trace amounts of congeners. The water added to high proof GNS to let it down is another factor. Possibly charcoal, silk or other filtering and other rectification processes add other substances that "flavor" the drink. My tasting of the grape vodka convinced me that trace elements of the fermentables enter all vodkas. The vodka was distilled multiple times but it still had a faint grapey edge. Micro distillers in America are making vodka from apples and other fruits and I suspect many of these products show faint traces of their origins. Anyway, I bought today Rain (organic corn-derived and "batch" produced), Wyborowa ("100% pure rye vodka") and Luksusowa ("Polish luxury potato vodka"). I couldn't find another vodka that specifically claimed corn as the fermentable, so I've left it at these three. Not sure when I'll get to the tasting, maybe tonight, maybe later (I need to get into the right Zen-like state of tranquility and palate reception). They are all 40% abv.

Gary

[kbuzbee]

There's an interesting article in the July Smithsonian Magazine which discusses the incredible success of corn yields since the introduction of synthetically produced ammonium nitrate fertilizer.

Another interesting note - heard the other day that the occurance of lightening makes nitrogen available to rain which delivers it to the plants.... MAybe we just need more lightening!

Ken

[TNbourbon]

...I couldn't find another vodka that specifically claimed corn as the fermentable, so I've left it at these three...

Gary, Tito's is explicitly made from corn. It's my understanding nearly all low- and mid-shelf U.S.-made vodka -- including Smirnoff, for example -- are made from corn. If the grain/fruit isn't listed on the label, and it's American, it's probably made from corn.

[Gillman]

Thanks Tim. We had Tito's here for a while but not now. I'll pick up then any North American-made vodka, say Iceberg, or Schenley, or (numerous choices) because it would be good to have a second corn example. I was doing some web searching on Rain, I found a statement that it is distilled 7 times. This seems a daunting number of distillations and I hope some faint character of the organic corn mash can still be detected. The Luksusowa is distilled 3 times. The Wyborowa bottle doesn't say, I would think 3 or 4 times. If I get Schenley's vodka, that would probably have passed a still 3 times. For those interested in some of the technics of vodka production, my readings over the years have suggested that grain neutral spirits has detectable amounts of esters, aldehydes, mineral solids and/or higher alcohols. Many countries have laws which limit the concentrations of these for GNS production. In the U.S. to be vodka, the GNS must have no distinctive aroma or taste. To achieve this, some GNS is subjected to further distillation (e.g. an extractive distillation) or some kind of filtration to further neutralise the taste. Still, my experience is while meeting the legal test (which is quite general as one can see) in practice different vodkas have slightly different tastes. Some of this comes from the congeneric remnants in the spirit and some comes perhaps from the kind of water used (although generally dilution is done using demineralised water). The difference won't be detectable by the average consumer and certainly not when the drink is mixed, but tasting neat might disclose some differences for some. So I'll embark on this solo taste test and see if I can taste anything of the original materials from which these drinks were made, and whether Rain seems to stand out and if so whether there seems any basis for suggesting the organic corn is doing the work. Right now I'm sipping a NDOT courtesy Tim S. so the vodka will be reserved for another night.

Gary