Confessions of a Rye fiend

[jinenjo]

Hello all. Three confessions (and some questions for anyone willing to respond).

1. I am trying to get my hands on any Rye possible. I purchased both (new) Michters Rye versions and I have to say that I'm not terribly impressed. The 10 year is nice, and I'll have to keep on tasting but it doesn't quite do it for me. Anyone agree? Also the US 1 version is pretty mediocre. I'd have to say it's the least favorite of much that I have tried. It just doesn't seem to hold any kind of distinction or depth, yet I feel it should.

2. I totally scored on this mini bottle of Four Roses Rye blend, 5 years old or more, from back in the day (the 1930's- it has a 1.5 cent tax stamp, but no date. I was told though it is indeed from the thirties). It is sublime stuff! Almost like a rye syrup. I'm not sure if it is from aging in the bottle or just the way stuff was made back in Maryland. It's a prized possesion though. Seems way older than 5 years...

3. Has anyone tried the Hirsch Canadian rye? Is it worth checking out? How about the very expensive A.H. Hirsch 21 yr old American rye? Is it a worthy investment for a rye fiend?

Cheers!

[cowdery]

A little searching on this site will find comments about most of these products.

Don't confuse anything from Canada, even if it's labeled "rye," with American straight rye. Very different animals. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but they're completely different.

The Michter's 10-year-old is very good. Probably the best rye around right now is the Rittenhouse. The 80 and 100 proof versions are very good and cheap. A 21-year-old version, not cheap, should be hitting the stores any day now.

[TNbourbon]

We finished off most of a 4/5-quart bottle (mine was from 1942) of that Four Roses rye blend (of straight whiskeys, at least 51% of which were rye, 5 years or more old) during a rye lineup I presented during the recent Sampler. I'd label it the hit of that lineup. Very fine indeed.

I still have a remaining mini I hope to coax Jim Rutledge to try, right before I start cajoling him to attempt to duplicate it.

And I'll second Chuck's recommendation of Rittenhouse, any version -- just buy it!

[MrAtomic]

Well,

I'll take this opportunity to cease lurking and start contributing – if the following can be considered a contribution. Jinenjo, I should start out by saying that I am in every sense a rank novice compared to the two members who've already responded to your question (as if my post count of "one" didn't give that away) but I do have some rambling thoughts on ryes that might be of some use:

I agree that the Rittenhouse 100-proof rye is not only extremely good, but a screaming bargain, even when factoring in shipping charges from Binny's, as no stores in my area stock this brand. I typically enjoy rye and bourbon neat, but have gotten into the habit of making Presbyterians (I may be using the wrong name) out of ginger beer and the Rittenhouse during the summertime. The strong, sharp flavors and fairly high proof of the Rittenhouse combine well with the spiciness of the ginger beer, making a refreshing and not overly-sweet drink.

My previous benchmark for "cost-effective" rye was 80-proof Old Overholt, and while I still have a sentimental attachment to it as the brand that taught me to appreciate rye, the 100-proof Rittenhouse is simply in another league. Old Overholt has a comparatively mild, almost sweet aroma that reminds me, of all things, of peanuts. At 80 proof it has virtually no alcohol burn on the tongue, and provides a taste consistent with its nutty scent. I enjoy it, but find little of the rye “bite†that makes the Rittenhouse so interesting. Compared to Old Overholt, experiencing the 100-proof Rittenhouse is like taking an anvil to the head – it starts with a sharper aroma, reminiscent of paint thinner (in a good way), and continues with a much more complex taste and forward presence of alcohol.

I really like the Michter's 10 year-old rye, but have not bought a bottle in over a year, as there are other bourbons and ryes that I enjoy even more in its price range. I suspect that very few people will agree with me, and I should reiterate that I am a beginner at bourbons and ryes, but I actually found the Michter's 10 year-old more enjoyable than the 2005 release of Sazerac 18 year-old rye. It has been many months since I finished my bottle of Michter's but I remember it having a similar aroma to the Sazerac, with both offering the very pleasant, unique, paint thinner-esque smells that I associate with tasty ryes. The Michter’s, though, had a longer, smoother finish. The 2005 Sazerac (the only release I have tasted) has a very short, dry finish, in my opinion, which is not bad, but less to my taste. I do not have an adequate tasting vocabulary, so please bear with me (and I am working from memory, without an open bottle), but the Sazerac also tasted comparatively “flat†on my tongue – almost woody – when compared with the Michter’s or the Rittenhouse. Then again, I am a novice taster and the Sazerac won all sorts of awards, so you really should purchase a bottle for yourself.

Of the ryes I've tasted, my favorite is the Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye (I’ve had the F and G releases, only). The bottle describes it as a 13 year-old spirit, but I seem to remember threads on this board mentioning that recent releases are actually older. I would defer to the "search" function. I’ve already let this post wind on for too long, so I won’t bother with my thoughts on the VWFRR, especially as others have already contributed better descriptions than I could, but suffice to say if you find some, I recommend buying a bottle or two.

Hope this helps, and thank you to everyone here who has helped me

Paul

[CrispyCritter]

Rittenhouse BIB is a flat-out favorite of mine. It's inexpensive enough to routinely use in cocktails - it makes outstanding Manhattans and Sazeracs - and it's quite tasty neat.

Wild Turkey Rye is also quite good - it's a bit more expensive than the Rittenhouse, and it's a bit stronger on the spice notes.

The Hirsch 8yo Canadian rye is worth picking up. Even though it's 86 proof rather than 100 or 101, it has a strong rye flavor to it.

I've loved both the '05 Sazerac 18yo (one unopened bottle left) and the 6yo "Junior" version of Sazerac. Unfortunately, the 18yo disappeared from Chicago-area shelves in a heartbeat, and the Jr. is getting hard to find now, too.

[BourbonJoe]

Keep in mind that there are going to be a bunch of new ryes on the horizon, such as Hirsch 21, Rittenhouse 21, LeNell's Red Hook 23, Doug Philips private label 23. These should be worth the wait.

Joe :usflag:

[jinenjo]

Thanks for the replies. I too am much within the novice status. However, I have had my fair share. I did recently get the Rittenhouse 100 proof and loved it. It surely will be a regular mail order from Chicago.

My thoughts on the Michter's ten still stands. However, I will soon try an experiment. I think it needs to breathe a heck of a lot. It doesn't seem to bring much to my palette. So I'm gonna pour a glass and nurse it for over an hour. I do remember some posts that state how it gets better in the bottle. So I want to continue to come back to it.

I am curious about the Hirsch Canadian. Thanks for the one recommendation. I know of course it is a different bread than a straight rye from Kentucky. But I'm not opposed to other styles of rye. In fact I am HUGE fan of the Old Potrero from Anchor. It is amazing to me. The nose and palette are ethereal and utterly unique. They actually were my entry into ryes not too long ago.

Cheers,

Lear

[cowdery]

The thing I want to make clear to those who might not realize it is that there is no such thing as "Canadian Rye." In other words, those words don't mean anything as distinguished from "Canadian whisky." If you see the words "Canadian rye" on a label, it just means that the company that makes the product thought that would look nice, but there is no definitional difference, recognized by law or common usage, between "Canadian rye" and "Canadian whisky." It doesn't mean anything or, rather, they mean the same thing.

That said, I did learn recently that Alberta Distillers, in Calgary, is the only Canadian distillery to use 100 percent rye grain, even for their base whiskey. Their whiskey products include Alberta Springs, Alberta Premium and Tangle Ridge. They are owned by Jim Beam.

[BobA]

Welcome, jinenjo. And for what it's worth, my bottle of Michters US 1 4-yr. did seem to improve with a little time after opening. There are few enough ryes out there that you can pretty much get everything you can lay your hands on all of which I've found worth it (OK, not so much the Jim Beam Rye). Sadly, the VW and Rittenhouse aren't available to me.

Bob

[jinenjo]

Now those Alberta ryes sound pretty darn good to me. The Old Potrero is 100% rye as well.

The Alberta whiskies are not available in the US as far as I know, sadly. Anyone willing to make a trade from my meager stash?

-Lear

[cowdery]

Tangle Ridge and Alberta Springs are very much available in the United States. I see them all the time here in Chicago.

[cas]

I just visited one of the Sam's in the Chicago suburbs. They had the Hirsch 21 ~ it was just over $100. I got the Rittenhouse...

Craig

[Powertrip]

2. I totally scored on this mini bottle of Four Roses Rye blend, 5 years old or more, from back in the day, the 1930's- Almost like a rye syrup. I'm not sure if it is from aging in the bottle or just the way stuff was made back in Maryland.

Just a note here, Whisky does not age once it has been bottled, regardless of how long it has been in bottle. What you tried was probably just the real-deal from 1930!

[Powertrip]

The Hirsch 8yo Canadian rye is worth picking up. Even though it's 86 proof rather than 100 or 101, it has a strong rye flavor to it.

I really wish Hirsch CANADIAN Rye was actually available in Canada....:frown:

[Rughi]

Just a note here, Whisky does not age once it has been bottled, regardless of how long it has been in bottle...

That's the conventional wisdom, but from my experience I believe small changes do happen over the decades. The liquid obviously doesn't pick up more barrel characteristics once bottled, and air interaction goes to a small percentage it had in the barrel, but there still is a small amount of air contact in the airspace and through the closure. If the bottle uses a cork it definitely allows air to pump a little in and out and changes some over the years. Metal or plastic-capped bottles often allow some infiltration/exfiltration as well; many of the 20-40 year old bottles I've purchased were slightly loose in the cap, and many that I've left on the shelves because of their cloudiness were only that amount loose. We know when a loose cap has allowed spoilage; why would we claim that absolutely nothing happens until the moment a certain amount of air contact has happened and then there is immediate spoilage?

I can't speak to any chemical reactions of compounds within the liquid itself, but I wonder if there isn't a small amount of reaction going on there, too, over the decades.

I believe that the reputation for spirits to be absolutely, 100% inert once bottled comes from a comparison to wines and beers which change as dramatically in the bottle as whiskey will in a barrel. Whiskey doesn't change quickly in the bottle, and hopefully not enough to cloud up regardless of how many decades it's been bottled.

The conclusion and/or suspicion of our tasting group, time and time again, is that small changes do happen over decades in a bottle, and moderate to fairly major changes to the more delicate aromas happen once opening and allowing more air interaction in the bottle.

I never bring sealed bottles to a tasting anymore, as I want the bottle to get at least a few days to open up before being evaluated.

Roger

[Chico]

I have been waiting for someone to say that. I recently opened a bottle of Cognac from 1930 something and was told that it hadn't aged a day in the bottle. If that's true, they forgot to fill it all the way, as a small degree of evaporation had obviously reduced the contents by a half-ounce or so over the years. Whiskey and other spirits may not "age" in the bottle in any that resembles aging in the barrel but I am convinced that they do change a bit over time.

The cognac was awesome, by the way.

[cowdery]

The reality is that oxidation is part of aging and, depending on the seal, a very small amount of oxidation can occur in the bottle. But when you think about it, both in terms of how little air gets in and how little of the liquid's surface area is in contact with that air, the effect has to be tiny. However, in 76 years it certainly could be notable. Still, I think it is correct to point out to people that spirits certainly do not age in the bottle the way wines do. It also is correct to note that differences in production methods and other differences between the way the brandy was made in 1930 and the way it is made today probably account for more of the difference than bottle aging.

[jinenjo]

Thanks, Chuck, Roger and others for the replies. While I am aware whiskey in the bottle does not age like wine, I was just speculating about the 70+ years this Four Roses spirit spent in the bottle.

The taste and texture was just so vastly different than any whiskey I have ever encountered I wasn't sure if it was largely a matter of the way rye was made back then.

So my question is, what on earth were they doing back then that the distilleries are not doing today to make such an incredible whiskey?

Perhaps such a query is left for further speculation.

[cowdery]

The main differences were lower proof of distillation and entry, older trees used to make the barrels, and probably a higher percentage of rye grain in the mash.

[jinenjo]

OK. Good information. I appreciate it coming from a bourbon "guru"!

Perhaps then it is the wood...

[CrispyCritter]

The other day, I picked up a bottle of Tangle Ridge at the Clark St. Binny's. I cracked it open tonight - wow! This is quite different than any other rye I've had - it has a chocolate note that's quite unique - yet I can still tell that this is a rye. :yum:

Now I've just mixed a Red Hook using it. It's very different from my usual Rittenhouse BIB or less-usual Sazerac Jr. versions - but all three versions are lovely.