JTS Brown

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

I am looking for jts brown bourbon as discussed in the film 'the hustler'.<br>Any information would be greatly appreciated.<br>Many thanks.<br>Mark Sinclair<br><br>Mark Sinclair

[cowdery]

See John Lipman's reply under the Fighting Cock inquiry. JTS Brown is made by Heaven Hill as well.

--Chuck Cowdery

[cowdery]

JTS Brown bourbon is, of course, what Paul Newman's character is drinking in The Hustler. Who remembers what Jackie Gleason, as Minnesota Fats, orders as his beverage? Both choices are very telling about the characters.

--Chuck Cowdery

[Buckky]

I realize this is an ancient post of yours but a search of "The Hustler", Paul Newman, Jackie Gleason, JTS Brown and Fighting Cock turned up empty. What was "Minnesota Fats" drinking? I have even been tempted to rent the movie to find out. By the way...did they mention bourbon brands during the movie Cincinnati Kid? any other movies with bourbons prominently mentioned besides Jack or Jim?

[cowdery]

Fats is drinking some kind of blended whiskey. He asks for it by name and I think we're supposed to figure out, or at least suspect, that it's a ringer, i.e., alcohol-free. The sequel, The Color of Money, begins with Fast Eddie marketing a bargain priced and, presumably, phony bourbon.

[Buckky]

thank you Chuck...by the way, what do you think of JTS Brown?

[cowdery]

I haven't had it in a long time, but it's Heaven Hill whiskey, so I wouldn't expect any surprises.

A peripheral story: many years ago I tried my hand at songwriting. Some friends of mine had a band and they picked up one of my songs. It was a thrill to hear it performed, but that was pretty much the end of that song, my songwriting career, and that band. I do, however, remember the band's name: JTS Brown.

[angelshare]

I realize this is a VERY old post. I found it in a search figuring that you knowledgable Bourbonians had already discussed JTS Brown and what the brand was during the era of The Hustler. Predictably, I was not disappointed.

I love that after Minnesota Fats asks for his liquor, a glass and some ice, Fast Eddie asks Preacher to get him a bottle of "JTS Brown...no glass...no ice." I realize this has been discussed elsewhere, but, for what it's worth, perhaps the morality lesson of The Hustler is really: don't drink straight from the bottle. At least if you're playing pool for money.

So...has anyone figured out the name of Minnesota Fats' whiskey? I've wondered for years. It sounds something like "White Tappen Whiskey" or "White Tap and Whiskey." I thought I would finally find out when I purchased the DVD, since it has subtitles, but the subtitles omit that line!

You mention The Color of Money, in which Fast Eddie has aged 25 or so years and presumably defeated his demon alcohol by...selling liquor and frequenting bars? Anyway, am I remembering correctly that he also sells labels of top shelf stuff that can be placed over bottom shelf bottles? Does this (presumably illegal) practice really occur? It seems that the only advantage would be falsely labeling sealed bottles; open bottles could just be cut or exchanged with other liquor. Also, the bottle and label style would have to be very similar. Finally - it's been a while since I've seen it - do I remember correctly that one of he labels is Wild Turkey, or did my fondness for WT 101 plant a false memory in my cerebral bourbon center?

[TNbourbon]

I believe what he says is "White Tavern Whiskey", but I can find no reference to any real brand by that name.

[cowdery]

It is "White Tavern" and I believe we are meant to ponder the possibility that it is a placebo, which contains no actual alcohol, that has been prepared by Fats and his associates for that purpose. He certainly shows no indication that he has consumed any alcohol as the game continues.

[angelshare]

"White Tavern." Thanks! I am sure you are right about the placebo theory. As you cite, not only does Fats seem unaffected, but he says somewhat ominously and emphatically to Preacher, "Get it at Johnny's."

[cowdery]

I am informed that there is, in fact, a "White Tavern Whiskey." Heaven Hill owns the brand. But that doesn't negate my theory about its significance in the movie, especially with the ominous, "get it at Johhny's."

[jbewley]

It's funny.. I've watched The Hustler at least a billion times in my life, but hadn't ever considered the idea that Fats' whiskey wasn't whiskey.

I grew up watching it and thinking it was a movie about pool. I hadn't watched it in years, and bought the DVD at Target a few months ago and watched it again. It's not a movie about pool at all. The pool is incidental. It's funny what ten or twenty years of perspective do to a movie.

As an aside, in the 1959 Walter Tevis novel ("The Hustler"), it was a little different.. it wasn't White Tavern whiskey, it was White Horse (I assume it's White Horse Blended Scotch) from page 39:

Then he pulled a ten-dollar bill out of his pocket, handed it to a thin nervous man in a black suit, who was watching the game, and said, "Preacher, I want White Horse whiskey. And ice. And a glass. And you get yourself a fix with the change; but you do that after you come back with my whiskey."

Eddie grinned, liking the feel of this, the getting ready for action. He fished out a ten himself. "J. T. S. Brown bourbon," he said to the thin man. Then he leaned his cue stick against the table, unbuttoned his cuffs, and began rolling up his shirt sleeves. Then he stretched out his arms, flexing the muscles, enjoying the good sense of their steadiness, their control, and he said, "Okay, Fats. Your break".

- Jeff

[boone]

I was in the dump room "trying" to show some friends how to read the date of entry for a barrel. I walked upon this barrel scheduled for processing in the single barrel station...

The first thing that surprised me was...this barrel is marked J.T.S. Brown. Heaven Hill, usually doesn't stencil barrels, for specific bottlings.

I had to get a picture of it...The first two numbers are the year (81) that it was barreled--L, the 12th letter in the alphabet=December---the last number is the acutal day---A is first shift, December 17, 1981...It's HH DSP #31...

I asked some of the guys from the warehouse about marking barrels with specific bottlings, and if there are any others? The answer was no, just the JTS Brown name is stenciled on "some" of the barrels along time ago...

Bettye Jo

[Gillman]

Three questions on this intriguing post:

(i) could it be that this barrel had been made for JTS Brown when it was independent (note the company name is used not just a brand name) but wasn't sold or delivered to them and finally ended up, new of course, in HH's barrel inventory?

(ii) what single barrel bottling is this intended for? Isn't this whiskey much older than anything sold domestically by HH? If intended for a foreign market, could it be for the one which receives the very rare 23 year old HH whiskey, the super-aged one we have read about here?

(iii) when this barrel was dumped Bettye Jo, how full was it?

Gary

[boone]

Hi Gary

(i) could it be that this barrel had been made for JTS Brown when it was independent (note the company name is used not just a brand name) but wasn't sold or delivered to them and finally ended up, new of course, in HH's barrel inventory?

You are more than likely, right, on this. I agree with you but I don't know for sure I will havta ask around for ya

(ii) what single barrel bottling is this intended for? Isn't this whiskey much older than anything sold domestically by HH? If intended for a foreign market, could it be for the one which receives the very rare 23 year old HH whiskey, the super-aged one we have read about here?

Yes, it's for the Evan Williams 23 year blue wax EXPORT only to Japan and France

(iii) when this barrel was dumped Bettye Jo, how full was it?

It was dumped on, April 26, 2004 I know for sure on the date cause I was showing Randy and Val when they came to visit during the Sampler

I asked Ronzo (worker in dump room) if he was going to process it that night? He told me that they were going to do it that following Monday...Hey, if your plane had been on schedule, you would have had the opportunity to see that one for yourself

I don't know how full it was...I should have shook it. I usually do that but the name on it kinda distracted me.

Bettye Jo

[Gillman]

Thanks Bettye Jo, great info as always. I was just reading about JTS Brown, the entry in Sam Cecil's book. I'll check it again, maybe it will shed more light. I wonder how these things develop, a 23 year old bourbon, not a twenty year old, or 21 year old, even though all those ages are years beyond any HH domestic. I guess the Elijah Craig 18 year old is the oldest regularly sold in the U.S. by HH (certainly the oldest single barrel of any bourbon in the U.S. period, I think). As for barrel quantity, I'd think that barrel would have been half full or less.

Gary

[cowdery]

I asked some of the guys from the warehouse about marking barrels with specific bottlings, and if there are any others? The answer was no, just the JTS Brown name is stenciled on "some" of the barrels along time ago...

I guess my question would simply be, why? Though it seems unlikely that anyone would remember after so long.

The J.T.S. Brown brand name and distillery (Today's Four Roses) were purchased by Seagrams in 1941, so that is when J.T.S. Brown ceased to be an independent company, but Seagram's undoubtedly used a J.T.S. Brown dba and so it is possible Heaven Hill made whiskey for them. However, unless the original intention had been to ship it to Seagrams for aging, there doesn't seem to be any reason to label the barrel unless there was some special specification for this batch of whiskey that made it different from the rest of Heaven Hill's output.

Another possibility is that it was labeled for a photograph for advertising or other marketing purposes when Heaven Hill obtained the J.T.S. Brown brand name from Seagrams. I don't know when that took place, but I know it was before 1991. I think it came in the same deal with Henry McKenna.

[TNbourbon]

When I took a tour at Buffalo Trace last July (2003), there was a display of several barrels of differing ages with the endpieces a transparent acrylic (or some other unsoluble material) so you could observe barrel level, color, et al. As it happened, there was a 23yo barrel -- I don't know if this was a full-time display or just something I was lucky enough to see -- and the visible bourbon remaining was no more than 8 or so inches at the deepest point.

I assume this was destined to be Pappy 23, which was bottled last December.

Elmer Lee, in a presentation he does for Buffalo Trace to select groups of distributors, retailers, etc., estimates "Angels' Share" loss at 8% the first year, then 3% annually thereafter. That would leave about a quarter-barrel after 23 years.

[Gillman]

Interesting, Tim, but not more than 8 inches?? That would leave much less than 25% in the barrel as a barrel must (I would think) stand higher than 32 inches. No?

Gary

[bobbyc]

This is as good a time as any to log this little nugget in. One of the Warehousemen at 4 Roses told me, and he should know, that it depends on the barrel how much is lost to the Angels. He said sometimes a barrel will go in with 53 gallons and come out with 52. Some barrels will lose along the lines credited to Elmer above. Here's the funny part, some will be empty, and they have found barrels that have completely collapsed in the rack. The main point was that there isn't a single answer, I guess once one deals with millions of barrels an average can be arrived at. Does it help to know that no matter what the loss is , we are paying for that too?

[TNbourbon]

Granted, my memory may be faulty -- I didn't have the presence of mind to snap a picture (I think I left the camera in the car, in fact) -- but I remember trying to do the math upon departure, and guessing it to be between 10 and 15 gallons left. And, I am not taking into account the shape of the barrel which, on its side, will be deeper in the middle. I should have been clearer -- the 8 or so inches I saw were visible in the transparent endpiece, and certainly was deeper in mid-barrel. Still, the barrel had more 'empty' in it than bourbon.

[bobbyc]

The 20 year Sam's Club bottling appears to have been only 12 gallons.

60 bottles at barrel proof and a single barrel.

In light of those numbers, it seems all the more amazing that extra aged bourbon is being bothered with. Thanks Julian for leading the way there!

[gr8erdane]

FRANCE? I can understand the Japanese market and the prices it can fetch but selling this gem to those pompous socialistic surrender monkeys over appreciative loyal Americans, Canadians and Australians? MON DIEU!!!!!!! To borrow from Marie Antoinette, "Let them eat cake, but not wash it down with EW23!!!!!!!"

[doubleblank]

Bettye Jo....I remember seeing those barrels but didn't say too much about them. Thought I might be saying something out of school. There were six of them as I recall. That doesn't make a lot of cases regardless of how full they are (were). Glad they made it into the 23 yo bottling. That night, someone said they might be destined for the EC 18yo.

Randy B