Corn properties

[JRomain]

What elements do corn exactly impart in bourbon, in all departments (texture, aroma, flavor)? Sweetness, I know. But what type of sweetness?

And where does leather come from? A by-product of fermentation, largely derived from the yeast I presume?

[kbuzbee]

That is a great question!

I can give you my completely uneducated opinion but there are folks here to have actual knowledge.:grin: I'm looking forward to their replies!

To me, corn does add sweetness as you say, if you taste a drop of corn syrup, you'll get the taste. And some of the oily mouthfeel.

I would think the "leather" may come in part from the yeast but perhaps in combination with the barrel effects as I've not noticed it in any of the green spirits i've tried.

Thanks for raising the thought!

Ken

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

I am pretty sure that leather notes come from the oak. Remember that leather was traditionally tanned with oak bark. (I can't say what they do now. ) So I have always assumed that leather is getting its distinctive smell from the same place as bourbon does.

Ed

[ILLfarmboy]

Some time ago I bought a jar of Georgia Moon in part to satisfy my own curiosity regarding just this very question. After going back to it several times I've pretty much come to terms with the "funk" that overlays it's main flavor. It tastes best if I refrain from nosing the glass! You would think it would be easy enough to suss out the flavor of a straight unaged corn whiskey but I have failed. The best descriptor I can come up with is: It tastes the way a tassel smells (the green part) when you pull it from the stalk, overlayed by a brief slightly sour taste not unlike the smell of damp slightly moldy corn dust followed by a brief corn sweetness/oiliness due partly, I think, to the lack of tannins.

I'm not going to buy another jar anytime soon but I would rather drink this than the fake/adulterated whiskeys talked about in the old time saloon thread.

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

I'm not going to buy another jar anytime soon but I would rather drink this than the fake/adulterated whiskeys talked about in the old time saloon thread.

You and me both!

Have you had any of the aged corn whiskies, like Platte Valley or Mellow Corn BIB.

I get a orange pop flavor in that last that I also find in bourbon from time to time. I think that is the corn and barrel interacting.

Ed

[ILLfarmboy]

You and me both!

Have you had any of the aged corn whiskies, like Platte Valley or Mellow Corn BIB.

I get a orange pop flavor in that last that I also find in bourbon from time to time. I think that is the corn and barrel interacting.

Ed

No. But its on my list of things to try. I to sometimes get an orange flavor (orange zest) from OGD. I just figured it was that orange cap messin' with my head.

[gluce]

You guys should try Tito's Vodka, it is made from 100% corn and distilled 6 times. It is 100% American too, made in Texas. It is sweet and not bad.

That would qualify as corn whiskey!!!!! ( I think).......

Later,

George

[cowdery]

Nope. If it's vodka, it's not whiskey, by definition, due to its distillation proof. Also, most vodka is 100% corn, so nothing special about that.

Gee, maybe they should distill it 100 times. Then it would really be great, wouldn't it?

Corn mostly gives bourbon its sweetness, body and in younger whiskeys, a little grassiness. (Probably not a word, but you know what I mean.)

[Ken Weber]

I believe you guys have nailed the corn attributes: sweetness and oily mouth feel. You should see the fatty acids we filter out via our chill filtration system. We have a bottle of "clean" looking whiskey - until you look at it bottom-lighted (a light table able to project a beam of light up through the bottom of the bottle). There are globs of fatty acids just floating around. The less of these you remove the greater the oily mouth-feel you get.

Also, when you speak of Georgia Moon as a corn whiskey, it may have the same recipe as many of the other products from HH (I think they make it?). It can be classified as such because it is "aged" in used cooperage.

Ken

[BobA]

I believe you guys have nailed the corn attributes: sweetness and oily mouth feel.

Ken

This is exactly what I get from Mellow Corn - and about all I get. Still, nothing wrong with it, it's just a simple drink. And other than calling its sweetness a "corn sweetness," I can't describe it.

Bob

[cowdery]

Although other distillers make corn whiskey for blending purposes, only Heaven Hill makes it for sale, so any corn whiskey you see on the market is a HH product, including Georgia Moon (which was started by a distillery in Georgia) and Mellow Corn (which was an old Medley product). Platte Valley is a McCormick product but if they still make it, they're buying the whiskey from HH.

Georgia Moon and Mellow Corn are very different but I don't find either very palatable. I have both and probably will have those two bottles (well, a bottle and a jar) for a long time.

All of the HH corn whiskeys come out of the still the same. Georgia Moon never touches wood and Mellow Corn spends a little time in used cooperage. Since the used cooperage is undoubtedly first refill used bourbon barrels, it's actually sucking a little of that leftover bourbon out of the barrel.

[straightwhiskeyruffneck]

although most often thought of as an inferior product, i dont believe this to be true. i just think there's a lack of motivation to make a good corn whiskey

[cowdery]

I disagree. I don't think there is any way to make corn whiskey better than Heaven Hill is making it. A "better" corn whiskey is, well, bourbon, or taken in the other direction, vodka.

Corn whiskey is what it is. That doesn't make it inferior, but it is a taste not many people prefer over bourbon.

[barturtle]

I disagree. I don't think there is any way to make corn whiskey better than Heaven Hill is making it. A "better" corn whiskey is, well, bourbon, or taken in the other direction, vodka.

Corn whiskey is what it is. That doesn't make it inferior, but it is a taste not many people prefer over bourbon.

I mostly agree with this, however having recently tasted some old AMS corn, it was better. It wasn't worlds apart from the recent stuff from HH, but better is better.

Could it have just been in used wood for a while longer? Likely. Or maybe that barrel wasn't quite as used up (or maybe even more used up?) than the barrels HH is using. Might have even been aged during more favorable seasons than the recent bottle I tried.

None of this changes the fact that it's highly unlikely that corn is ever gonna replace bourbon and rye as my daily pour, but the AMS was good enough that it could be put in rotation right beside Bernhiem Wheat.

[ILLfarmboy]

I disagree. I don't think there is any way to make corn whiskey better than Heaven Hill is making it. A "better" corn whiskey is, well, bourbon, or taken in the other direction, vodka.

Corn whiskey is what it is. That doesn't make it inferior, but it is a taste not many people prefer over bourbon.

Perhaps having never tasted the aged product I'm not qualified to comment on this. But I concur. Further exploration might change my mind but I imagine even straight corn aged in new cooperage would be lacking in zing sort of like salt without the pepper. the unaged product most definitely lacks spice. An aged version while easer to drink would still lack either the spice from the rye or that indefinable nutty quality from the wheat. I suspect it would be monotonously one dimensional. Out of curiosity I'd still like to try it but I don't imagine even aged in new wood it would have wide appeal.

[barturtle]

Perhaps having never tasted the aged product I'm not qualified to comment on this. But I concur. Further exploration might change my mind but I imagine even straight corn aged in new cooperage would be lacking in zing sort of like salt without the pepper. the unaged product most definitely lacks spice. An aged version while easer to drink would still lack either the spice from the rye or that indefinable nutty quality from the wheat. I suspect it would be monotonously one dimensional. Out of curiosity I'd still like to try it but I don't imagine even aged in new wood it would have wide appeal.

If you age corn in new cooperage that has been charred, you have bourbon. Corn can only be aged in new uncharred or used cooperage. I doubt anyone is using new uncharred wood...the used barrels are already paid for.

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

Perhaps having never tasted the aged product I'm not qualified to comment on this. But I concur. Further exploration might change my mind but I imagine even straight corn aged in new cooperage would be lacking in zing sort of like salt without the pepper. the unaged product most definitely lacks spice. An aged version while easer to drink would still lack either the spice from the rye or that indefinable nutty quality from the wheat. I suspect it would be monotonously one dimensional. Out of curiosity I'd still like to try it but I don't imagine even aged in new wood it would have wide appeal.

Timothy is right. Aged in new charred barrels distillate that would qualify as straight corn (80% corn or more in the mashbill) is bourbon. The Old Charters are all 80% or more corn. Several other Buffalo Trace bourbons share this mashbill. One of which is George T Stagg.:bigeyes: Not the sort of bourbon that one would call one dimentional or lacking in zing.

Ed

[Rughi]

TI believe you guys have nailed the corn attributes: sweetness and oily mouth feel. You should see the fatty acids we filter out via our chill filtration system.... The less of these you remove the greater the oily mouth-feel you get.

Ken

Ken,

My love for and search for that oily mouth-feel has led me to very, very many run-down liquor stores in search of bottles old enough to be from an era when this character wasn't routinely stripped away. Perhaps 80% of my purchases are directly attributable to this desire.

Now that the extra-aged revolution has been established, I think the new frontier is to regain in bourbon the big mouth-feel and complexity of those particles that now are trapped in the filter screens.

The three most desired BT products on this board this year seem to be LaRue, Handy and Stagg - which are unfiltered/uncut products. I suggest their desirability only partially comes from being marketed as a scarce commodity, and primarily because their big mouth-feel and complexity make them damn good to drink.

Roger "Don't Hide the Corn" Hodges

[jburlowski]

Not to hijack this thread or anything, but I wonder what will the expected 62% increase in the price of corn over the next year (largely due to the increased demand for ethanol) will do to the bourbon market. Raise prices (I expect some modest impact but imagine that the price of corn is a relatively small component of the overall price)? Or impact quality (as corn availability diminishes? Or nothing?

[oldironstomach]

Although other distillers make corn whiskey for blending purposes, only Heaven Hill makes it for sale, so any corn whiskey you see on the market is a HH product ...

Is Virginia Lightning no longer being made, or is it technically not a corn whiskey?

[Str8RYE]

Is Virginia Lightning no longer being made, or is it technically not a corn whiskey?

There's Old Gristmill as well. I believe thats a 100% corn whiskey.

[ILLfarmboy]

Old Charter, Eagle Rare, and George T. Stagg use BT low rye mashbill. But how low? Indead an all corn 80/20 unmalted/malted or 90% corn 10% barley malt aged in new charred barrels would meet the legal defiinition of bourbon; forgot about that earlier. But how would it compare to even a low rye mash? Elswhere on this board Wild Turkey has been peged at 75% corn 13% rye and 12% barley malt and it's considered semi-high rye. So it seems it dosn't take much rye to impart that "rye spice" but how low can you go and not suffer in the taste department?

If Mellow Corn contains no rye an interesting comparison might be Mellow Corn and Early Times Kentucky Whiskey; both aged in used cooperage. assuming Early Times a rye bourbon/whiskey?

[cowdery]

I believe Heaven Hill makes only one corn whiskey mashbill and it contains a little bit of rye and a little bit of malted barley. The only 100% corn products are being made by micro-distillers. They need to get amylase from somewhere and while they may get it by malting corn, they probably get it in bags from enzyme manufacturers.

[JeffRenner]

Mellow Corn spends a little time in used cooperage.

As a bottled in bond whiskey, I believe it spends at least four years in used wood. Very likely no more, though.

Jeff

[cowdery]

As a bottled in bond whiskey, I believe it spends at least four years in used wood. Very likely no more, though.

Jeff

Exactly right. I had forgotten that Mellow Corn is a BIB. Legally, it could be aged in new uncharred wood, but that seems very unlikely. That is a variation we are unlikely to experience.