Corn properties

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

Old Charter, Eagle Rare, and George T. Stagg use BT low rye mashbill. But how low? Indead an all corn 80/20 unmalted/malted or 90% corn 10% barley malt aged in new charred barrels would meet the legal defiinition of bourbon; forgot about that earlier. But how would it compare to even a low rye mash? Elswhere on this board Wild Turkey has been peged at 75% corn 13% rye and 12% barley malt and it's considered semi-high rye. So it seems it dosn't take much rye to impart that "rye spice" but how low can you go and not suffer in the taste department?

If Mellow Corn contains no rye an interesting comparison might be Mellow Corn and Early Times Kentucky Whiskey; both aged in used cooperage. assuming Early Times a rye bourbon/whiskey?

Not all Early Times is aged in used cooperage. It is a blend of straight bourbon aged in the normal way and whiskey aged in used cooperage. IIRC it is an 80/20 ratio. It would still be an interesting head to head. Especially if you could get a sample of the non bourbon Early Times.

Ed

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

I believe Heaven Hill makes only one corn whiskey mashbill and it contains a little bit of rye and a little bit of malted barley. The only 100% corn products are being made by micro-distillers. They need to get amylase from somewhere and while they may get it by malting corn, they probably get it in bags from enzyme manufacturers.

Any idea how little rye? Is it less than BT mashbill 1?

Does Heaven Hill use any enzymes to suppliment the barley malt in there corn whiskey mashbill?

Ed

[cowdery]

Here in the USA, the trick is getting a sample of the Early Times Bourbon. All that is sold here is the Kentucky Whisky. You're right that the Kentucky Whisky is about 80 percent bourbon, but I believe it's all only three years old too, so pretty different even from most inexpensive bourbons.

I don't really know how HH makes its corn whiskey, except that Parker and Beam will always stick to what they know, so I suspect it's probably an 80/10/10 mix, or something close to that, with some supplemental enzymes. As for BT 1, I don't think it's actually as high as 80 percent, although that's what Charter was when it was made at Old Bernheim.

[chasking]

although most often thought of as an inferior product, i dont believe this to be true. i just think there's a lack of motivation to make a good corn whiskey

I think this is correct. I will respectfully disagree with Chuck C's assessment that it can't be made better than Heaven Hill is making it. Georgia Moon is a gimmick spirit that's intended to be nasty, and Mellow Corn is a legacy brand that I'm sure gets little if any thought. I don't think Heaven Hill is setting out to make a really great corn whiskey. No doubt it would not be worth the effort economically, but I think straightwhiskeyruffneck is correct in his assesment.

Making a really great corn whiskey would require a lot of attention to distilling practice, getting the right cut, and might require a narrower cut than a whiskey that's going to be aged. There are no doubt other variables in the distilling process that could be manipulated. But having read a number of books about moonshining, back in the old days there is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence that the good shine was really good---people drank it because they actually liked it. So I think a good corn whiskey is possible. If it tasted anything like the Beam white dog that Fred Noe had at Whiskeyfest Chicago a couple years ago, I'd buy it, and not for the novelty jar.

If I had the cash and leisure to get into craft distilling, corn whiskey would be high on my list of things to try.

[cowdery]

I think what Ruff and Chas are saying is reasonable, even if I don't totally agree. Just the fact that Heaven Hill's corn whiskey has no competition entitles us to believe they probably are not driven to make it as good as it can be. Another issue: what's good? If there was a larger market for corn whiskey and multiple, different producers, the marketplace would tell us which one consumers prefer. As it is, it's just a small number of people at Heaven Hill deciding, "this is how corn whiskey should taste."

You are right that Georgia Moon is a novelty and no one at HH is especially proud of it. As for Mellow Corn, they do, in their own evaluation, consider it a quality corn whiskey. Don't take too much from the fact that they didn't originate it. There are only three whiskey brands that Heaven Hill did originate: Heaven Hill, Evan Williams and Elijah Craig. Everything else is "legacy" in the same sense as Mellow Corn.

Finally, I completely agree that making a good corn whiskey is a worthy goal for a craft distiller. If we could just get them to quit kidding themselves about the merits of hand-crafted vodka.

[dougdog]

If we could just get them to quit kidding themselves about the merits of hand-crafted vodka.

You nailed it again Chuck!

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[bobbyc]

There are only three whiskey brands that Heaven Hill did originate: Heaven Hill, Evan Williams and Elijah Craig.

Bluegrass, Belles, and Bourbon P.79

"Our labels, in addition to T.W. Samuels are Elijah Craig and Jim Porter."

I'd like to know the particuliars of who had it first and the transference to Heaven Hill/T.W. Samuels.

[cowdery]

Bluegrass, Belles, and Bourbon P.79

"Our labels, in addition to T.W. Samuels are Elijah Craig and Jim Porter."

I'd like to know the particuliars of who had it first and the transference to Heaven Hill/T.W. Samuels.

To whom does the "our" refer?

I will say that the book you are quoting contains a lot of mistakes, to the point where I have pretty much disregarded it in my research.

I have a very vague memory of seeing once a reference to someone having used the Elijah Craig name prior to Heaven Hill, but Heaven Hill has always claimed that they originated it (as a whiskey brand obviously, since the Rev. Craig himself used it first) and I have never been able to find solid evidence to the contrary.

[Father&Son]

If I had the cash and leisure to get into craft distilling, corn whiskey would be high on my list of things to try.

Now there's a fun idea! I realize a lengthy discussion would be off-topic, but is it possible for one to become a craft distiller these days? I assume this requires licensing by ATF. Readers can PM me if they'd rather not hijack the thread.

[cowdery]

Now there's a fun idea! I realize a lengthy discussion would be off-topic, but is it possible for one to become a craft distiller these days? I assume this requires licensing by ATF. Readers can PM me if they'd rather not hijack the thread.

Yes it is, and getting easier all the time. I used to tell people that it was nearly impossible, but times have changed.

The place to start is the American Distilling Institute web site.

[bobbyc]

To whom does the "our" refer?

T W Samuels

[cowdery]

There, again, I think the problem is that book.

Bluegrass, Belles and Bourbon, by Harry Harrison Kroll, was published in 1967 and, presumably, written that year or maybe the year before. T. W. Samuels last produced whiskey in 1952, so by the time Kroll came around, the T. W. Samuels brand was already at Heaven Hill and the T. W. Samuels company no longer existed.

Bill Samuels Senior was active in that company, but was a minority stockholder and had sold out his interest in 1943, going on to found Maker's Mark a few years later. The new owners kind of ran the place into the ground. Two guys who worked there with Samuels and left, I think, when he did, were Sam Cecil and Charlie DeSpain, both of whom went to Heaven Hill. Charlie DeSpain was plant manager at Heaven Hill from 1945 until 1972, so my guess would be that Kroll was talking to Charlie and got the company name screwed up.

Sam's book, as you know, as some accuracy problems, but it's a lot more useful than Kroll's. Sam says HH "acquired" the Williams and Craig brands. I don't think so. If someone used the names before Heaven Hill did, the evidence is very elusive.

[FlashPuppy]

Now there's a fun idea! I realize a lengthy discussion would be off-topic, but is it possible for one to become a craft distiller these days? I assume this requires licensing by ATF. Readers can PM me if they'd rather not hijack the thread.

Also, a fuel alcohol distilling permit is easily obtained and makes it completely legal to own and operate a still. As long as it is for fuel ethanol only.

I obtained a permit for California for a minamal fee (I believe around $25 in processing fees), which allows me to distill up to 10,000 gallons annually.

Now you can't drink it, but if you just want to fire up a still and run some off, this is the way to go and beat gas prices to boot!! :grin:

[bobbyc]

T. W. Samuels last produced whiskey in 1952, so by the time Kroll came around, the T. W. Samuels brand was already at Heaven Hill and the T. W. Samuels company no longer existed.

Chuck I'll have to get back with you on that, there are still some people that had relatives that worked there that can give me the actual dates they stopped. I know for a fact my Grandfathers older brother worked there until he retired and that was at least the mid 60s.

There's a retired schoolteacher that lives close to 4 Roses in Bullitt County and her father worked there, I'll give her a call.

[cowdery]

The 1952 date is from Sam Cecil, who worked there as you know. It's likely they stopped distilling in 1952 but continued to operate as long as they had their whiskey in the warehouses. Also, as you know, the site was briefly operated by a bottled water concern that used the name (I think) "Samuels Springs."

Today the warehouses are all in use by Heaven Hill and Maker's Mark, but I don't think anyone is using the other buildings.

Bobby, for those who don't know, lives a hop, skip and a jump from the Samuels site and knows a lot of current and former employees of all of the distilleries down there.