TOTM, 4/07: Mashbills

[jeff]

In order to make good bourbon, you need to start with good ingredients. We all know that a bourbon mash consists of at least 51% corn. From there it is left to the distiller's discretion to finish the recipe. Rye or wheat are used as flavoring grains, while malted barley is added for its enzymes that convert the starches in the grain into fermentable sugars.

This month let's discuss the properties that each grain brings to the mashbill and from where these grains are sourced. We should also make note of the known mashbills for specific brands and distilleries. We can also venture into the mashing process in terms of the order, temperature and length of "cooking" time for each grain. We'll discuss yeast and fermentation next month.

So put on your thinking caps and mash on!

:Clever:Sound off:Clever:

[Gillman]

Good questions, Jeff.

I'd like to focus on rye. Rye grain seems to impart a certain distinctive taste to whiskey, both in new whiskey and older whiskey. This derives from its congeners which are unique to rye or associated with it in relatively high concentrations, e.g., trace amounts of methanol.

Somtimes it manifests as minty-like, sometimes spicy, sometimes earthy. In older whiskeys this trait can translate to "old flowers". Rye is a complex flavor grain and unmistakeable although sometimes you notice it simply by its absence (e.g. in modern Maker's Mark).

It adds not just its savour but a certain body or depth to whiskey. Rye, in the form of ryed bourbon or rye whiskey, is indispensable to a good whiskey cocktail.

While I respect wheated bourbon, as Chuck Cowdery has written "rye-recipe bourbons are always more interesting".

Gary

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

Great topic!

One thing I believe is that rye bourbons need less age. Young wheaters just aren't very interesting to me. They aren't bad, just simple and missing the spice I enjoy so much. But wheaters age gracefully. Give a wheater 12 or more years in the barrel and it becomes a fine drink with out becoming woody, at least to my taste. The same can be said for very low rye bourbons.

Ed

[nor02lei]

Good questions, Jeff.

Somtimes it manifests as minty-like, sometimes spicy, sometimes earthy. In older whiskeys this trait can translate to "old flowers". Rye is a complex flavor grain and unmistakeable although sometimes you notice it simply by its absence (e.g. in modern Maker's Mark).

Gary

I would definitive ad fruitiness and in some brands bitterness as well Gary. When it comes to the bitterness I experience it as very soft in comparing to for instance tannin bitterness. I do find the same kind of soft bitterness in Swedish rye bread with I eat every day.

I do also believe that the flavours from the rye grain change a lot during the maturing process. For instance it seem to me that the spiciness first increase and after a certain number years start to diminish instead.

Leif

[jburlowski]

Great topic!

One thing I believe is that rye bourbons need less age. Young wheaters just aren't very interesting to me. They aren't bad, just simple and missing the spice I enjoy so much. But wheaters age gracefully. Give a wheater 12 or more years in the barrel and it becomes a fine drink with out becoming woody, at least to my taste. The same can be said for very low rye bourbons.

Ed

I couldn't have said it better.... I like wheaters but only the more mature expressions. I also love rye bourbons but the older bottlings (10-12+ years) seem to run the risk of being oaky.

[ratcheer]

It is probably no secret that my favorite mash bill is BT #2, their higher rye recipe. Ancient Age, Elmer T. Lee, Blanton's, and Rock Hill Farms. With the possible exception of AA, which I haven't had in years, YUM!

Tim

[ILLfarmboy]

I would definitive ad fruitiness and in some brands bitterness as well Gary. When it comes to the bitterness I experience it as very soft in comparing to for instance tannin bitterness. I do find the same kind of soft bitterness in Swedish rye bread with I eat every day.

I do also believe that the flavours from the rye grain change a lot during the maturing process. For instance it seem to me that the spiciness first increase and after a certain number years start to diminish instead.

Leif

I find an unmistakable familial resemblance between Saz 18 and pumpernickel (a dark chewy rye bread) not so much with Saz Jr.

[cowdery]

For people who don't like bourbon, most of what they don't like about it comes from rye. That's the Maker's Mark thesis and there is a lot of truth to it. Rye is earth, spice and flowers. It is also the acidic burn in the back of the throat.

[Gillman]

Agreed all 'round.

Gary

[mrt]

This thread is a complete lesson for me. Now, I know more about how the mashbill affects the taste of bourbon, especially what effect rye has. However, there's sth. that's not yet clear in my mind: Since bourbon is distilled and so alcohol is seperated from the rest, and this alcohol has the same chemical formula for all bourbons (ethanol, right?), then what's the explanation for the differences in the tastes of different "white dogs"?

[ILLfarmboy]

This thread is a complete lesson for me. Now, I know more about how the mashbill affects the taste of bourbon, especially what effect rye has. However, there's sth. that's not yet clear in my mind: Since bourbon is distilled and so alcohol is seperated from the rest, and this alcohol has the same chemical formula for all bourbons (ethanol, right?), then what's the explanation for the differences in the tastes of different "white dogs"?

If you re-read post no. 2 by Mr. Gillman and then read last month's TOTM http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6881&highlight=pot+stills wherein is a prety good description of distilling in general I think things will be more clear.

[SBOmarc]

It is probably no secret that my favorite mash bill is BT #2, their higher rye recipe. Ancient Age, Elmer T. Lee, Blanton's, and Rock Hill Farms. With the possible exception of AA, which I haven't had in years, YUM!

Tim

Whenever I start the night off with one of these pours, I can't seem to go back to a wheater and appreciate them in the same way. I can go ahead to straight Rye and taste even more of the spice and feel more of the burn. Lately that has meant Saz and Saz Jr,, Handy. as well as WT Rye. If I do go back to say a Weller 107 or another wheat pour I always seem to be disappointed.

[ratcheer]

This thread is a complete lesson for me. Now, I know more about how the mashbill affects the taste of bourbon, especially what effect rye has. However, there's sth. that's not yet clear in my mind: Since bourbon is distilled and so alcohol is seperated from the rest, and this alcohol has the same chemical formula for all bourbons (ethanol, right?), then what's the explanation for the differences in the tastes of different "white dogs"?

Because, while other liquors are distilled to higher proofs, bourbon comes off the still at a maximum of 125 proof. This means that at least 37.5% of the distillate is something other than alcohol. In my opinion, this explains why bourbon has more flavor than most other spirits.

Tim

[ILLfarmboy]

Because, while other liquors are distilled to higher proofs, bourbon comes off the still at a maximum of 125 proof. This means that at least 37.5% of the distillate is something other than water. In my opinion, this explains why bourbon has more flavor than most other spirits.

Tim

The maximum barreling proof is 125 but it can come off the still higher. I think the fact sheets with the Antique Collection say they come off at 135 except for the WLW which has a lower distillation proof and is barreled somewhere south of 125. But in any case bourbon and rye both have relatively low distillation and barreling proofs and consequently fairly high cogener and fuisil oil content when compared other spirits.

BT is pretty open about distillation and barreling proofs but what I would really like to know is what are the numbers for WT.

[TNbourbon]

The maximum barreling proof is 125 but it can come off the still higher. I think the fact sheets with the Antique Collection say they come off at 135 except for the WLW which has a lower distillation proof and is barreled somewhere south of 125. But in any case bourbon and rye both have relatively low distillation and barreling proofs and consequently fairly high cogener and fuisil oil content when compared other spirits.

BT is pretty open about distillation and barreling proofs but what I would really like to know is what are the numbers for WT.

Don't know about Wild Turkey, but Woodford Reserve is pretty forthright about distilling well into the 150+-proof range, nearing the legal limit. I think most distillers today distill to higher proofs than were once common.

[cowdery]

I would say that the most common distillation proof for American whiskey is about 140, i.e., 70% ABV. The point is that the lower the proof, the more grain and yeast flavors are retained.

I wish there was an easy way to get everyone some distillery white dog (i.e., spirit straight from the still). Taste a little whiskey white dog against a vodka, for example, and everything will become clear to you.

[nor02lei]

What about the Wild Turkey mash bill? Anybody got any guesses or facts about it? I have read in a couple of books that it should be 13% rye. However concerning the taste it seem less likely and a bit low to me. The only other brands that have some similarities to me are some Forester versions. For instance I think OFBB fall 90-03 is rather taste alike KS and the 2005 and partly also the 2002 reminds me a lot of older bottlings of 101. And Turkey definitely don’t taste as rye-high to me as the brands that have around 30%. My personal guess based on taste is around 20%.

When I did visit the distillery and asked Jimmy Russell he told me WT had a “high” rye mash. The white dog sample he offered me had a real nice fruity taste. I told him I thought it tasted so good that they could as well bottle some straight from the still and he fully agreed.

Leif

[OscarV]

When I did visit the distillery and asked Jimmy Russell he told me WT had a “high†rye mash. The white dog sample he offered me had a real nice fruity taste. I told him I thought it tasted so good that they could as well bottle some straight from the still and he fully agreed.

Leif

Leif,

How cool was that?

Wow, drinking White Dog with Jimmy Russell!

That's one tour you'll never forget.

Oscar

[nor02lei]

Leif,

How cool was that?

Wow, drinking White Dog with Jimmy Russell!

That's one tour you'll never forget.

Oscar

That’s right Oscar I won’t ever forget that!

Leif

[mrt]

Lesson is enhancing...That's good

[TBoner]

Good questions, Jeff.

I'd like to focus on rye. Rye grain seems to impart a certain distinctive taste to whiskey, both in new whiskey and older whiskey. This derives from its congeners which are unique to rye or associated with it in relatively high concentrations, e.g., trace amounts of methanol.

Somtimes it manifests as minty-like, sometimes spicy, sometimes earthy. In older whiskeys this trait can translate to "old flowers". Rye is a complex flavor grain and unmistakeable although sometimes you notice it simply by its absence (e.g. in modern Maker's Mark).

It adds not just its savour but a certain body or depth to whiskey. Rye, in the form of ryed bourbon or rye whiskey, is indispensable to a good whiskey cocktail.

While I respect wheated bourbon, as Chuck Cowdery has written "rye-recipe bourbons are always more interesting".

Gary

I would add anise/licorice as a specific variation on spicy that comes through very frequently, especially in younger whiskeys. But I wonder what other factors cause rye to manifest itself in particular ways. For instance, I have speculated previously that perhaps it's the Beam yeast interacting with rye that produces a signature foxy/funky/anise flavor which seems to age out over time (or change with time). A similar, though not identical, character comes through in Heaven Hill (which Chuck and others have speculated may use the same yeast). In no WT product, though, regardless of age, do I detect this much anise character. I guess what I'm getting at is that flowers, red hots, licorice, pepper, and earth are variations of rye that occur for a reason, a relatively reproducible reason, given consistency across product lines. Thoughts?

All in all, I do tend to find rye-recipe bourbons more interesting. It seems we attribute most (though not all) of the intrigue and spice in bourbon to the rye . Interesting that corn is the defining grain in terms of the legal definition of bourbon, but rye perhaps provides the signature flavors that to many define bourbon.

[Gillman]

Wheat recipe bourbons can achieve complexity too, in younger ages from grain fusels and other congeners not fully altered by aging (e.g., Old Weller 107 proof), in older ages from multiform barrel effects (the excellent Van Winkle products show the latter quality).

But none of these are really spicy in the way rye spirit is. And that spice manifests in the ways discussed, yet it is quite singular too (even apparent in some Canadian ryes, e.g., the CC 20 year old discussed recently, also CR, they have a light floral tone that surely comes from the low proof rye element).

I don't think on reflection that anise/licorice is due to rye in the mash. JD has that taste but e.g. OF doesn't, yet both use rye in the mashbill. I think the yeast used must impart this characteristic.

Rye is quite evident when you compare, say, WT rye with WT 80 proof. That extra taste of "roses" or "floral" seems to come from the rye, it adds an extra layer of flavor to whisky, basically. In older ryes the rye component seems to age ("old books", "old roses/damask") and the complexity factor can increase.

Yet sometimes there is no floral but rather mint, or grassy-like tastes, or earthy ones. Rye indeed is a mystery except probably to distillation chemists.

Gary

[nor02lei]

Isn’t there anybody interested in discussing mash recipes? Some are official and some not. Barton’s is one of the secret ones. I know they have at least 2 different rye recipe bourbon mashes and one rye. I haven’t tasted much Barton’s but it seems to me that as least Ridgemont reserve comes from a high rye bourbon mash.

Leif

[cowdery]

Actually, the unique feature of the Ridgemont 1792 mash bill is that it is higher in malt. American distillers, for the most part, have used malt for its essential enzymes but have ignored its potential contribution to flavor. We're proudly contrarian in that regard, but it is interesting to taste a "malt-heavy" bourbon, which is one way of describing Ridgemont 1792.

At WhiskeyFest Friday night, Heaven's Hill booth seemed to be emphasizing three products: EW Single Barrel, Elijah Craig 12 and Bernheim wheat. Keeping Bernheim wheat in front of enthusiasts is a good idea, because I think people need to be reminded that this unique mash bill is available.

[ratcheer]

Isn’t there anybody interested in discussing mash recipes? Some are official and some not. Barton’s is one of the secret ones. I know they have at least 2 different rye recipe bourbon mashes and one rye. I haven’t tasted much Barton’s but it seems to me that as least Ridgemont reserve comes from a high rye bourbon mash.

Leif

Sorry, Leif, but I don't know any actual mash recipes, so I would have a difficult time discussing them with you. About all I know is that some are flavored with wheat, some are flavored with rye, and others are flavored with more rye. I generally prefer rye to wheat, and more rye to less rye. That's about the extent of my knowledge. :blush:

Tim