TOTM, 4/07: Mashbills

[nor02lei]

Actually, the unique feature of the Ridgemont 1792 mash bill is that it is higher in malt. American distillers, for the most part, have used malt for its essential enzymes but have ignored its potential contribution to flavor. We're proudly contrarian in that regard, but it is interesting to taste a "malt-heavy" bourbon, which is one way of describing Ridgemont 1792.

I never could have guessed that Chuck.

Leif

[OscarV]

This is interesting, I never could make up my mind if I liked 1792 or not, the high malt makes it different that's for sure.

[OscarV]

Jimmy Russell . The white dog sample he offered me had a real nice fruity taste. I told him I thought it tasted so good that they could as well bottle some straight from the still and he fully agreed.

Leif

As everyone knows we, the SB.com members, are getting a special bottle of Pappy Van Winkle 23yo that Julian Van Winkle III is putting together for us.

With the above post in mind I wonder if we could get Wild Turkey to bottle some "White Dog" for us?

I have tasted some once at the Buffalo Trace distillery, I for one would love to have a bottle, and the Wild Turkey version would be a great score.

What does everyone else think?

Maybe we should talk it up a bit.

Next week at the Sampler maybe someone can bring it up to some of the distillery reps.

[Rughi]

With the above post in mind I wonder if we could get Wild Turkey to bottle some "White Dog" for us?

I'd like that a lot. It's something I think about often.

The stumbling block one hears about special requests is that they need to have an approved label for whatever is being bottled. None of the information can be "wrong", but it doesn't need to be completely accurate, either.

For instance, iirc the "Barrel C" of SW that Cliff organized a couple of years ago was labelled as Weller 12/90. It was indeed Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey, (at least) 12 years old, it was 90 proof, and it was _sort of_ "Distilled by WL Weller and Sons, Frankfort, Kentucky."

White dog is so young and untouched by wood that it wouldn't be Bourbon, it wouldn't be Straight, and I don't think it could even be called Whiskey. Assuming WT doesn't have a label like that on hand, WT would have to certify a new label for one barrel's worth of "Distilled Spirits, aged less than 90 days" or somesuch. If you look up the definition of whiskeys, bourbons and straights in the archives, it'll tell you the requirements. If you followed Lenell's story of getting her label certified, you'll see it can be time consuming and a headache.

Now HH could probably put their white dog directly into Georgia Moon, if the label doesn't specify too much (is it "corn liquor," for instance?).

The other thing is that WT would have to want to release some white dog to the public. Not all distilleries are keen on letting oddball expressions loose (as witnessed by Ken Weber's discussion about a year ago of tightening up the variation in the barrel programs they offer).

Roger

[Zero]

I thought I'd touch one of the subjects that was mentioned in the first post in this thread, specifically that, "[w]e should ... make note of the known mashbills for specific brands and distilleries."

I'm no expert on the subject--far from it, in fact--but I've been curious about how mashbills translate to flavor, and have collected a few claims around the web. To wit, http://groups.msn.com/DrinkBoy/spirits.msnw?action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=13645

which reads in part:

[c= corn | r= rye | w= wheat | b= barley]

Jack daniels 80 c 12 r 8 b

George dickel 80 c 12 r 8 b

Evan williams 75 c 13 r 12 b

Wild turkey 75 c 13 r 12 b

Woodford 72 c 18 r 10 b

Makers mark 70c 16w 14b

Old forester 79 c 11 rye 10 b

pappy van winkle 73 corn 18 wheat, 9 malted barley

rittenhouse 65% r 23%c 12%b

Elsewhere (http://www.myspeakerscorner.com/forum/spawn.php?qv=1&fn=6&tid=57477), another claim:

Old Fitzgerald, for example, uses 75% corn, 20% wheat, and 5% barley malt.

And, finally (http://grayfoxonline.mywowbb.com/forum8/1437-1.html):

A typical amount of corn is 75%. I believe the standard Heaven Hill mashbill (which includes Evan Williams, Fighting Cock, and a billion other HH bottlings) is around 13% rye. Old Grand Dad is probably the most rye-heavy bourbon you'll come across, at around 27% rye. Chuck Cowdry (Author of 'Bourbon, Straight', a GREAT book on bourbon that includes specific info on Fighting Cock) gives a fairly "standard" bourbon mashbill as 75% corn / 13 % rye. Old Forester is often considered a very benchmark bourbon at 72% corn / 18% rye. Old Charter is an example of a very corn-heavy bourbon.. it has relatively little rye. Makers Mark, Weller, Old Fitzgerald, Rebel Yell, and the Van Winkle bourbons have wheat instead of rye in their mashbill, and are typically sweeter.

(the first and third quotes disagree on the composition of Old Forester).

I, for one, would be interested to learn what the Basil Hayden's mashbill is. I tasted it alongside the 6yo Sazerac rye and there are some real similarities. Also, I'm skeptical of the claim that Woodford is 18% rye--I just don't taste it.

No whisky in hand, 'cuz it's only 11:45 am ...

Zero

[Zero]

Quoting Cowdery (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45920&postcount=7) regarding mashbills, and Basil Hayden's in particular:

Booker Noe once told me that the mashbill for Beam is 76 percent corn, 13 percent rye and 10 percent malt, while the mashbill for Old Grand-Dad (and Basil Hayden's) is 63 percent corn, 27 percent rye and 10 percent malt.

I reckon that answers my question about BH. 27% rye seems quite plausible to me. I'll have to pick up some OGD!

[OscarV]

George dickel 80 c 12 r 8 b

Zero

I just got back from Tennessee, been home a few hours and have a No.12 on the rocks in hand, I went to the Dickel distillery.

According to them Dickel uses 86% corn, 8% rye and 8% barley for all their brands.

[barturtle]

I just got back from Tennessee, been home a few hours and have a No.12 on the rocks in hand, I went to the Dickel distillery.

According to them Dickel uses 86% corn, 8% rye and 8% barley for all their brands.

Husks and all:lol:

[nor02lei]

Jack daniels 80 c 12 r 8 b

Evan williams 75 c 13 r 12 b

A typical amount of corn is 75%. I believe the standard Heaven Hill mashbill (which includes Evan Williams, Fighting Cock, and a billion other HH bottlings) is around 13% rye. Chuck Cowdry (Author of 'Bourbon, Straight', a GREAT book on bourbon that includes specific info on Fighting Cock) gives a fairly "standard" bourbon mashbill as 75% corn / 13 % rye.

Zero

When I did visit the HH distillery in Louisville Charles Downs told me the rye recipe mash bill was 78, 10,12 (c,r,. The white dog he offered me was very sweet tasting. I asked him if this was due to the high corn content but he said that the sweetness came from all the grains.

The JD mash bill is 80,8,12 according to official signs at the visitor centre.

Leif

[JeffRenner]

At some point a year or two ago, I went through the bourbon books I have that address mash bills, Waymack and Harris's Classic American Whiskeys, the two by Gary and Mardee Regan, and Jim Murray's Classic Bourbon, Tennessee and Rye Whiskey, and posted the mash bills as reported, including conflicting ones. I think it was pretty complete.

A search of the archives should pull this up.

Jeff