BOTM,11/07:Basil Haydens

[TNbourbon]

...Why spend $21 for 750ml of BH when I can buy a liter of JBB for $18?

Jeez! I'd buy it at $21, at least once in a while. Basil Hayden's generally is $38-$40 around here, before tax!

[Solomon2]

Come to think of it, I really compare Johnnie Walker Red with BY when asking myself what to drink. But yes, here in Montgomery County, Maryland, we don't have private liquor stores but government-run dispensaries. The difference in price makes up for the limited selection - most of the time. Judge for yourself! - and this is just the stuff on sale!

[AVB]

BH is one of the worst bourbons I've ever bought. Thin, minimal flavor, over priced and just not what I look for in a pour. However, somebody must like it and so that means more of the other stuff out there for me.

[Jono]

Solomon2...not sure what you mean by Scotch like...do you mean in flavor profile?

BH, to my taste buds, doesn't remind me Scotch...but...everyone is different.

[polyamnesia]

BH is one of the worst bourbons I've ever bought. Thin, minimal flavor, over priced and just not what I look for in a pour. However, somebody must like it and so that means more of the other stuff out there for me.

i gotta say, this stuff bored me first time around, but i am on a rampage lately after tasting some Heaven Hill.....and now, i have to say, this thin, overpriced stuff is the medicine i needed!

i would rather pay too much for whiskey that doesn't quite impress than too little for whiskey that scars the tastebuds...!

like others have suggested, up BH to 100 proof....PLEASE. make it bite!

[TBoner]

Today I picked up some OGD 86 8 yo. How close is that going to be? I'm pretty sure this is ND OGD, so will that make it less like Basil Hayden?

It will be different. I have many bottles of this stuff w/the 8yr age statement. Some signifcantly older whiskey made it in. For the most part, that's a good thing, but I opened a bottle recently that's just too woody and tannic. The rye spice present in BH is there, but it's not just lightly prickling the tongue: it's a very nicely cinnamon-and-clove dusted bourbon. The extra proof provides additional zing, and there's a fruit note in the ND OGD that has never been in a BH I've had.

As for BH, I like the light body on a summer day, and I actually think it does okay mixed with iced tea (in a pretty high ratio of bourbon:tea) on ice. The lightly spiced character has to be the result of careful barrel selection, as I don't get much in the way of floral notes that rye can lend, nor the melding of char and spice that pepper the tongue in every ND OGD (and some Beam OGD).

In other words, BH is okay.

It costs $31 minimum in these parts.

$31 = okay? Noooo.

Meanwhile, I've never paid over $17 for a fifth of OGD 8yo/86. When that's all gone, I'll drink current OGD.

[Sloop]

I don't get the alcohol content versus price thing matters. I drink Bourbon for the flavor. I don't care what percent alcohol it is if I like it.. To me a bourbon doesn't have to bite me to make it a good bourbon. It's in the richness and complexity of the flavor.

Now to Basil... when I first got into drinking straight bourbon, it was one of my favorites. As my tastes have gotten more defined it has dropped down quite a ways. While a very smooth drink, its flavor is pretty light. It is nice for a hot summer day over ice when you just want something bright to sip on.

[Rughi]

It's in the richness and complexity of the flavor...

The richness and complexity of a bourbon in a bottle is directly proportional to how much water was added at bottling - if it was brought down from 120 proof in the barrel to 80 proof in the bottle it has been diminished by 1/3 from what it was in the barrel. Plus, many of us believe that some of the most delightful aromas and flavors that bourbon has to offer aren't even evident when cut with so much water.

Now, if we were talking about a barrel proof that happened to be 80 proof - well that's something that'd be very interesting to try...

Roger

[Sloop]

The richness and complexity of a bourbon in a bottle is directly proportional to how much water was added at bottling - if it was brought down from 120 proof in the barrel to 80 proof in the bottle it has been diminished by 1/3 from what it was in the barrel. Plus, many of us believe that some of the most delightful aromas and flavors that bourbon has to offer aren't even evident when cut with so much water.

Now, if we were talking about a barrel proof that happened to be 80 proof - well that's something that'd be very interesting to try...

Roger

I guess to each his own. 120 proof.. i would be adding water... I prefer to sip something in the 80 to 100 proof over ice most of the time.

[cowdery]

The similarities to scotch are in its dryness and tannic notes, with some hearty vegetable flavor in the middle. Turnip, maybe? I kid, but it does have a raw grain taste at the center. All of the Old Grand-Dads do. With scotch, too, there is that malt taste that's always there, whereas in many bourbons you don't get any raw grain flavor.

(I'm using the expression "raw grain" to mean the same thing as vegetal, and I prefer "raw grain" to "grainy," which tends to be misinterpreted.)

[Gillman]

I've always wondered about that taste in Basil Hayden and other Beam products (even their best) up to 8 years old. Knob Creek doesn't have it though. I wonder if - in the Beam process and the way it has matured its products - 9 years is the bright line for that taste to fade. Other distilleries offer whiskeys younger than Basil Hayden that do not have that assertive vegetable taste. I wonder why this is exactly? (I don't intend to divert the thread so this is more a musing than anything else, or to be pursued in a separate thread). I am not a fan of Basil Hayden, but for the kind of taste we are discussing, I think the first bottling of Baker's presented it best.

Gary

[polyamnesia]

The similarities to scotch are in its dryness and tannic notes, with some hearty vegetable flavor in the middle. Turnip, maybe? I kid, but it does have a raw grain taste at the center. All of the Old Grand-Dads do. With scotch, too, there is that malt taste that's always there, whereas in many bourbons you don't get any raw grain flavor.

(I'm using the expression "raw grain" to mean the same thing as vegetal, and I prefer "raw grain" to "grainy," which tends to be misinterpreted.)

chuck, can you elaborate a little more on the vegetal...? or at least link me to an area here where this is discussed?

as i continue to explore and discover nuances (subtle or not!), i am starting to wonder (in more detail) about what i am experiencing...or think i am experiencing.

i've only had an bottle of BH once...and i didn't catch this vegetable (Beamish?) character. i DID get an OGD BIB last night and did catch this sense...i think. again, a Beam product, right?

BUT i have to say, the OGD was most similar (and a bit better i admit) to that young 'old STYLE' bourbon i bought last week..HEAVEN HILL. that was VERY vegetal...

what gives that sense? corn? rye? wheat? another alchemical area i need to study a bit more.

[Bailey]

I think I get what Chuck is referring to but would never have known how to describe it. I don't find it quite as much in the BH but I really pick it up in the OGD 114. I am sure someone has posted before but what is the age of the OGD 114? For some reason I don't notice that taste so much in Knob Creek or even Bakers.

[polyamnesia]

I think I get what Chuck is referring to but would never have known how to describe it. I don't find it quite as much in the BH but I really pick it up in the OGD 114. I am sure someone has posted before but what is the age of the OGD 114? For some reason I don't notice that taste so much in Knob Creek or even Bakers.

again, i like to use the search, but it's hard sometimes to squeeze out specifics...

i'd love to find a discussion regarding basic differences in taste between wheat/corn/rye...i know aging makes a difference...but what would be two or three EXEMPLARY representatives of these various grains' characteristics.

like i said earlier, i never got the BH-OGD connection thru tasting them at all, but rather in reading it here!

again, i know what i like, but it is getting to a point where i want to know WHY i like and don't prefer various resulting mashbills/bottlings.

one thing for sure:

i'll take Weller Antique 107 over OGD 100 or BH anyday.

what does that say about what grain i prefer?

but then, i prefer WT 101 over Weller anyday...

[cowdery]

The raw grain taste is usually associated with youth, also with certain yeasts. The characteristic thing about American whiskey is the new barrel, so that as the whiskey ages, barrel flavors become more and more dominant, and you get less and less of that raw grain flavor. It does, at times, resemble the taste of root vegetable such as turnips, although that's probably an extreme comparison.

[smokinjoe]

again, i like to use the search, but it's hard sometimes to squeeze out specifics...

i'd love to find a discussion regarding basic differences in taste between wheat/corn/rye...i know aging makes a difference...but what would be two or three EXEMPLARY representatives of these various grains' characteristics.

like i said earlier, i never got the BH-OGD connection thru tasting them at all, but rather in reading it here!

again, i know what i like, but it is getting to a point where i want to know WHY i like and don't prefer various resulting mashbills/bottlings.

one thing for sure:

i'll take Weller Antique 107 over OGD 100 or BH anyday.

what does that say about what grain i prefer?

but then, i prefer WT 101 over Weller anyday...

Andy, I've referred people to a series of posts by Marvin on this site. He put together an 8 part series on tasting that has been a big help to me in my exploration of our favorite spirit. I don't know how to link it here, but look for posts entitled "How to evaluate the different taste in bourbon", by Marvin from Oct. 13, 2004 through Nov. 17, 2004. I think you'll find these to be as invaluable to your tasting, as they have been to me. I refer to them constantly.

Cheers!

JOE

[bobbyc]

Andy, I've referred people to a series of posts by Marvin on this site. He put together an 8 part series on tasting that has been a big help to me in my exploration of our favorite spirit. I don't know how to link it here, but look for posts entitled "How to evaluate the different taste in bourbon", by Marvin from Oct. 13, 2004 through Nov. 17, 2004. I think you'll find these to be as invaluable to your tasting, as they have been to me. I refer to them constantly.

All of the above mentioned threads by Marvin, excellent I might add, are stickied at the moment at the top of the "Tasting" forum. I urge any interested party to bookmark or otherwise save the urls as it may turn out having 8 threads stickied will look like too much clutter. I defer to Jim Butler and Jeff Yeast that decision, they may un sticky those. For the time being enjoy because they are indeed a remarkable piece of work by Marvin.

[polyamnesia]

thanks guys for the insights and maps and tips!:grin:

[Sycamore Tree]

Basil hayden's is too thin, has a metalic wood taste, has a short finish and pretty much sucks, IMHO. I can think of a bunch of bourb's that I would rather drink. I have it had 3-4 times in the hope that I had a bad bottle. but nope it really is not good to me. But if you like , I may just have different likes. I would rather drink JIM BEAM WHITE!!

[Barrel_Proof]

All of the above mentioned threads by Marvin, excellent I might add, are stickied at the moment at the top of the "Tasting" forum. I urge any interested party to bookmark or otherwise save the urls as it may turn out having 8 threads stickied will look like too much clutter. I defer to Jim Butler and Jeff Yeast that decision, they may un sticky those. For the time being enjoy because they are indeed a remarkable piece of work by Marvin.

I just reread them all with great pleasure. Thanks for the great idea, Bobby. No. 8 is especially fun. We miss you, Marvin.

[bluesbassdad]

My scotch-drinker son visited over Thanksgiving. I took the opportunity to resume my quest to acquaint him with the virtues of bourbon (or at least of better scotch than the Dewar's he prefers).

Mainly for that purpose I bought a bottle of BH. However, I was a little curious myself because I had tasted it only one time several years ago.

I drink so infrequently these days that my tasting ability, no great shakes to begin with, has deteriorated to beginner status. Even so, I had no trouble noticing the oft-cited similarity with Old Grand-Dad, even though it had been months since I sampled from my lone bottle of OGD BIB.

However, I found the BH to be inferior on two counts. Obviously the lower proof is one factor. Ironically I thought its additional age worked against it, as well. Making a weak drink smoother seems misguided.

I haven't had OGD in the lower proof (86?) for years, but I recall that it had an appealing sparkle that is lacking in the BH.

When my son jokingly asked where we keep the Coca Cola (to mix with my $36 -- ouch! -- bottle of bourbon), I told him to feel free to mix it however he pleased. He was kidding. I wasn't.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[squire]

I considered buying a bottle today while at the store but it costs more than twice as much as the Granddad BIB on the same shelf, so, I decided to just buy two BIBs instead.

Squire

[Martian]

I tried a small bottle of BH as part of the Beam Small Batch Collection. I can only describe it as subtle and elegant. BH might be good for someone being introduced to bourbon. I usually drink bourbon over ice in summer, but BH might be an exception and would be a good summer treat neat.

[blux]

I like it as a before-dinner bourbon.

[craigthom]

I have to go to Bardstown for work every now and then, and, when possible, I like to stop at Beam and get a sample on the way home. Each day they sample two of the four small batches. I think they are starting to recognize me, so this may come to an end soon.