Stitzel & Weller.... Why is it special??

[jasonh]

Over the years, I have frequented a number of online forums that dwell on various specific spirits. Whether it's tequila, rum or some other type of whisk(e)y, there are always discussions on why the present day offerings of some quality brand are not as good as old bottlings, even though the process hasn't changed. To see these same discussions span over all types of spirits makes me believe there is something to bottle conditioning. Some of it might just be due to a little lowering of the alcohol content (without adding water) from evaporation. Something along the lines of what happens when you do a reduction in cooking. It would interesting to know what he actual alcohol content is for old bottles, compared to what is written on the label. Some of it might might be due to a break down of volatile compounds that will inherently be in any distilled spirit, that once neutralize, allow a spirit to really shine.

With people willing to pay a lot more for artisanal distilled spirits today, probably more than ever in the history of mankind, I find the argument that "cost cutting is the reason nothing can be as good as the old stuff" to be very hard to believe. Granted a lot of the artisanal efforts out there are still pretty young. However, we are likely going to enter into a new golden age in whiskey here in about 5 to 10 years, once all this white dog on the market has had a chance to age.

I also highly doubt humanity knows less about distilling as a whole today than they did 50 to 100 years ago. Knowledge worth it's salt gets passed on.

[ILLfarmboy]

Over the years, I have frequented a number of online forums that dwell on various specific spirits. Whether it's tequila, rum or some other type of whisk(e)y, there are always discussions on why the present day offerings of some quality brand are not as good as old bottlings, even though the process hasn't changed. To see these same discussions span over all types of spirits makes me believe there is something to bottle conditioning. Some of it might just be due to a little lowering of the alcohol content (without adding water) from evaporation. Something along the lines of what happens when you do a reduction in cooking. It would interesting to know what he actual alcohol content is for old bottles, compared to what is written on the label. Some of it might might be due to a break down of volatile compounds that will inherently be in any distilled spirit, that once neutralize, allow a spirit to really shine.

With people willing to pay a lot more for artisanal distilled spirits today, probably more than ever in the history of mankind, I find the argument that "cost cutting is the reason nothing can be as good as the old stuff" to be very hard to believe. Granted a lot of the artisanal efforts out there are still pretty young. However, we are likely going to enter into a new golden age in whiskey here in about 5 to 10 years, once all this white dog on the market has had a chance to age.

I also highly doubt humanity knows less about distilling as a whole today than they did 50 to 100 years ago. Knowledge worth it's salt gets passed on.

[Josh]

Over the years, I have frequented a number of online forums that dwell on various specific spirits. Whether it's tequila, rum or some other type of whisk(e)y, there are always discussions on why the present day offerings of some quality brand are not as good as old bottlings, even though the process hasn't changed. To see these same discussions span over all types of spirits makes me believe there is something to bottle conditioning. Some of it might just be due to a little lowering of the alcohol content (without adding water) from evaporation. Something along the lines of what happens when you do a reduction in cooking. It would interesting to know what he actual alcohol content is for old bottles, compared to what is written on the label. Some of it might might be due to a break down of volatile compounds that will inherently be in any distilled spirit, that once neutralize, allow a spirit to really shine.

[Gillman]

In this beverage science text, the statement is made that a flavor difference results from using metal vs. wood fermenters:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=13Eyp2p2mPkC&pg=PA416&dq=bourbon+%2B+consumer+preference+%2B+bacteria&hl=en&ei=5aLXTuLKFonq0gGt5eTsDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepa

Of course, this alone may not explain anything for a specific whiskey profile over time, but it is one of the factors IMO, amongst others, which may explain changes of flavor in bourbon generally from one generation to the next.

Gary

[tommyboy38]

Maybe it's not that special.

I do enjoy a good wheater but I also enjoy whiskey from many distilleries from times past. It's not just SW, It's BF, OT and OGD.

There was apoint made previously that something could change in the bottle. Maybe we need a mass spectrometer to test whiskey as it sits in the bottle and see what changes.

Maybe the current Old Fitz will taste great if you let the bottle sit until 2031. I'll start that experiment now and post on this 12/1/2031

[Josh]

In this beverage science text, the statement is made that a flavor difference results from using metal vs. wood fermenters:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=13Eyp2p2mPkC&pg=PA416&dq=bourbon+%2B+consumer+preference+%2B+bacteria&hl=en&ei=5aLXTuLKFonq0gGt5eTsDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepa

Of course, this alone may not explain anything for a specific whiskey profile over time, but it is one of the factors IMO, amongst others, which may explain changes of flavor in bourbon generally from one generation to the next.

Gary

Jim Rutledge seems to think otherwise.

In the 1960's and `70's long-term experiments proved that it doesn't make a difference if fermentation takes place in wood or steel or any container. The construction of the fermenter and the materials used have no impact on the chemical process.... These experiments were again confirmed in the `90's. We use both red cypress and stainless steel fermenters, and one's not better than the other.

http://bourbondork.blogspot.com/2011/11/q-34-with-four-roses-master-distiller.html

[Gillman]

What does he mean by "chemical process" though, does it include taste?

Just as an example, I've read that chemically, highly rectified GNS is the same regardless of the feedstock used to provide the fermentables it is distilled from. Yet, many would claim (correctly or not I don't know) that vodka from grapes doesn't taste exactly the same as vodka from corn, or that vodka from corn tastes different to vodka from rye, etc. The difficulty is that the water makes a lot of difference too to the taste, so it's hard to know what explains what, at least from consumer standpoint.

Gary

[Gillman]

We will never know the actual answer IMO because this wood-metal aspect, even if it means something, is just one variable. There are so many variables in the process, and they must surely change over time to a degree, that I doubt any one of them can explain a detectable change.

Gary

[Josh]

What does he mean by "chemical process" though, does it include taste?

That's a good question.

Just as an example, I've read that chemically, highly rectified GNS is the same regardless of the feedstock used to provide the fermentables it is distilled from. Yet, many would claim (correctly or not I don't know) that vodka from grapes doesn't taste exactly the same as vodka from corn, or that vodka from corn tastes different to vodka from rye, etc. The difficulty is that the water makes a lot of difference too to the taste, so it's hard to know what explains what, at least from consumer standpoint.

Gary

I have tasted a wheat and a rye vodka from the same distillery side by side and I have noticed a slight difference between the two, but it was so slight that I wasn't sure if it was really there or just the power of suggestion. I've had a grape vodka too, and it did taste different from what I remember Stoli or Smirnoff tasting like, but again there wasn't enough of a difference to be sure.

[Gillman]

I recall a grape vodka too Josh, from France in this case. I felt I could taste a slight effect from the grapes, of course it may have been intentional in that case.

It's an interesting issue but again very difficult to pin down. Still, that statement from the beverage science text was worth recording here I thought...

Gary

[DeanSheen]

I don't know about taste but I did meet a guy at a party last year that had brought potato vodka because he was allergic to wheat.

[Josh]

I recall a grape vodka too Josh, from France in this case. I felt I could taste a slight effect from the grapes, of course it may have been intentional in that case.

It's an interesting issue but again very difficult to pin down. Still, that statement from the beverage science text was worth recording here I thought...

Gary

Round Barn Winery on Michigan's SW coast makes (or gets someone else to make) a vodka called Divine, made from grapes. That was the one I tried.

[ILLfarmboy]

I don't know about taste but I did meet a guy at a party last year that had brought potato vodka because he was allergic to wheat.

I have no words..........................

[StraightNoChaser]

I recall a grape vodka too Josh, from France in this case. I felt I could taste a slight effect from the grapes, of course it may have been intentional in that case.

It's an interesting issue but again very difficult to pin down. Still, that statement from the beverage science text was worth recording here I thought...

Gary

European vodka standards are fairly lax. It's common practice to use additives that enhance flavor characteristics to achieve a house profile

[tmckenzie]

we make a grape vodka and it does taste a little different. In fact that is what we are running this week. 24 hours a day. Got 6000 gallons of wine to run. 300 gallons at the damn time. I am so ready to get back on whiskey.

[cowdery]

Although virtually all vodka available for sale in the United States is made from grain, U.S. rules allow vodka to be made from any raw material. The raw material used must be disclosed on the label. Circoc is the best known grape vodka. Chopin is the best known potato vodka.

I think most people believe all vodka is made from potatoes. Funny that. Even historically, in the vodka heartland of Poland and Russia, potatoes were used only when grain was scarce. Potatoes are native to the Americas so they are relatively recent arrivals in Europe.

Periodically, Poland and Russia try to get the EU to declare that vodka must be made from either grain or potatoes, nothing else.

In addition to grain, potatoes, and grapes, vodka may also be made from sugar cane.

[smokinjoe]

Although virtually all vodka available for sale in the United States is made from grain, U.S. rules allow vodka to be made from any raw material. The raw material used must be disclosed on the label. Circoc is the best known grape vodka. Chopin is the best known potato vodka.

I think most people believe all vodka is made from potatoes. Funny that. Even historically, in the vodka heartland of Poland and Russia, potatoes were used only when grain was scarce. Potatoes are native to the Americas so they are relatively recent arrivals in Europe.

Periodically, Poland and Russia try to get the EU to declare that vodka must be made from either grain or potatoes, nothing else.

In addition to grain, potatoes, and grapes, vodka may also be made from sugar cane.

The potato thing is interesting. I know that as a kid/young adult, I was told that vodka was made from potatoes. Heard this from several sources. But, primarily I can remember my dad telling me this in a thick and somewhat believable, though, fake Russian accent. I wonder why many people thought/think that? Any idea? Maybe, a readily available and cheap source to make moonshine by early European immigrants to this country, and it just carried over somehow?

[cowdery]

I'm sure that's what I 'learned' as a kid too and believed until I began to work in the business and learned the truth. I don't know where it comes from but it is pretty universal. I do know that the word and drink were virtually unknown in the USA until after Prohibition, when Smirnoff was introduced, so the tale is of fairly recent vintage. It was, perhaps, a rumor started by the competition to undermine vodka sales.

[tmckenzie]

I tell folks at least 10 times a week that it is not from potatoes. I remeber my dady saying it came from potatoes. But he also thought you could drink it to hide that you were drinking, becuase it had no smell.

[jburlowski]

I tell folks at least 10 times a week that it is not from potatoes. I remeber my dady saying it came from potatoes. But he also thought you could drink it to hide that you were drinking, becuase it had no smell.

Wasn't it Smirnoff that advertised the fact that it has no smell?

[cowdery]

"Smirnoff Leaves You Breathless."

[smokinjoe]

Very old S-W (pre-sale) is special. Very special. The dribs and drabs that have been released over the last several years...not so special, IMO.

[Lost Pollito]

IMO, SW is special because it tastes great, and is no longer made. Simple.

[Rughi]

IMO, SW is special because it tastes great...

Less Filling!

Roger