High West Distillery

[p_elliott]

Thanks I'm normally a straight bourbon or straight rye type of guy but this sounds interesting. I would do a bottle of this.

Yeah, and I liked it quite a bit. Four Roses is the most likely candidate for the bourbon. So, a nice High rye bourbon with a High rye rye. Makes for a spicey vanilla ride.

this should clear it up:

http://www.whatdoesjohnknow.com/2009/10/22/review-high-west-bourye-batch-1/

[cowdery]

As with most things High West does, there is less here than meets the eye. What, after all, is a combination of bourbon and rye? Both contain a lot of corn, both are aged in new, charred oak barrels. Both are distilled at less than 80% ABV and entered into the barrel at less than 62.5 ABV. In the bourbon universe, you have some that contain no rye, but some that contain as much as 35% rye.

So other than a gimmick, or a gillmanization, what is 'bourye'?

[sailor22]

So other than a gimmick, or a gillmanization, what is 'bourye'?

Not so different from any of the majors blending different barrels of different recipes to reach a taste profile. The obvious example is 4 Roses or Parkers heritage Golden. Why isn't that a "gimmick"?

I don't get the sense any of them are pretending it is something it isn't. If it's tasty and they are being pretty straight up about what's in the bottle what's the problem?

[Gillman]

Well, exactly. Rye whiskey is bourbon enhanced to taste more of rye; bourbon whiskey is rye whiskey in which the rye element is lessened.

If you blend bourbon and rye, you are simply adjusting the relative proportions of the corn and rye to your taste; that is all it is.

Gary

[Josh]

As with most things High West does, there is less here than meets the eye. What, after all, is a combination of bourbon and rye? Both contain a lot of corn, both are aged in new, charred oak barrels. Both are distilled at less than 80% ABV and entered into the barrel at less than 62.5 ABV. In the bourbon universe, you have some that contain no rye, but some that contain as much as 35% rye.

So other than a gimmick, or a gillmanization, what is 'bourye'?

[Gillman]

It is more than Gillmanisation (with all due respect to me). It is a blend of straight whiskeys (whether so termed or not), a traditional way to present American whiskey to the consumer. Products like this were extensively merchandised from the 1930's-1950's but are part of the American whiskey tradition in general.

Putting it a different way, my ideas come from this tradition.

Gary

[cowdery]

Gary expressed it better than I did. The name is the gimmick, as if there is something special about vatting a bourbon with a rye, and in that way it is completely different from Parker's or Four Roses, both of which not only meet the legal requirements for straight bourbon, but are also singles, in the Scottish sense. The whiskeys in the mix are all straight bourbons made at the same distillery by the same distiller.

The problem with High West is that they aren't positioning themselves as what they are, an NDP or, more specifically, an independent bottler. That is, indeed, a very worthy thing to be. They are positioning themselves as a micro-distillery, which so far as the whiskey they're selling is concerned, they are not.

[tmckenzie]

I agree with Chuck, they are positioning themselves as a micro. Now, I do think they have a still. I did see a bottle of what said it was rye white dog in nyc at whiskey fest. I did not try it. I did not want to, it was white, like feints, not white as in clear. So I would say they distilled it themselves.

[sailor22]

I get your point Chuck. I just never got the sense they were being duplicitous. Reading their labels I always get the impression that the vatting (or not in the case of the 21) was from "found" stocks of existing Rye and Bourbon.

The names and bottle always struck me as marketing. Not any more or less offensive than a major corporation labeling a Bourbon with the name of someone who is no longer in any but the most tenuous way associated with the product. I see it as playing to a younger market, the way craft Beers have creative names.

[Gillman]

Just as a gloss on my second-to-last post in this discussion, of course if the bourbon and rye come from different distilleries, combining them can result in a pleasing profile, i.e., beyond the confines of adding to the rye or corn in my examples. This was indeed a key aspect of the old practice of blending straight whiskeys to which I referred. As noted by other posters, that is a vatting as it is often termed. Combining many barrels even of the same product is essentially similar though, due to wide variations in the taste of barrels aged for different times in different warehouses or ricks.

On the point about whether the company actually distilled the product, it is of less importance to me, in fact none really. I can find out further facts about most producers from this board if I wish to. I do admire what the actual distillers are doing, make no mistake. I think in the end they will reap the rewards of doing so but for those who feel they need, at least for the moment, to market a good-tasting product bought elsewhere, perhaps which they blended (which puts their stamp on it) that is fine too.

Gary

[dgonano]

As Gary mentioned, the blending of straight whiskies became very popular after Prohibition. Distilleries such as Frankfort owned several plants in Maryland and Kentucky producing Rye and Bourbon straight whiskies. This gave them the opportunity to create numerous blends. Four Roses, Paul Jones, and OOP were all produced in this manner. All blends of Straight Bourbons and Ryes with no GNS added.

Also, during this period, blends were created by introducing younger whiskies(less than 4 years old) in the mix. These were called blends of whiskies(straight omitted). Years Later GNS entered the formula and soon became the largest ingredient, eventually tarnishing the quality of some famous whiskies.

[Gillman]

Very true Dave, but the practice long preceded the 1930's.

Gary

[p_elliott]

I think Dave hit it on the head here, the blending or vatting of straight whiskey's without the adding of GNS is not a big deal. I don't think High West is trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes here other than they don't actually distill the stuff. Gees how many companies we have doing that. The vatting of a Rye bourbon and and 2 rye whiskeys sounds kinda of interesting to me. As long as I know up front that's what I'm getting. If they had added GNS I would have been no way on this but that's not the case. They are not trying to sell this as a straight whiskey that would be a fraud or anything other than what it is. Unlike a certain other product we know .

[notamormon]

Hi Gentlemen,

David Perkins from High West. I got a note from someone that said I should weigh in here. Chuck, I don't think its fair to say "As with most things High West does, there is less here than meets the eye." I'm not pretending to be anything than I am not and you don't have to dig at all beyond our back labels and website to determine that. High West is BOTH a distillery and an "independent bottler." We have had a DSP permit and a still for 4 years now. If we didn't distill a whiskey we are selling, we clearly state on all the bottles we sell that we sourced the whiskey from back east while we are waiting for our own whiskey to age. Its as simple as that. We also talk about this on our website and how we were able to get the whiskey - all of it was destined for blending with GNS in well-known blends. Yes (and I know this is frustrating to some), I do not reveal the source of my whiskies as I am bound by contract not to. The makers see this as brand dilution and prefer that the public not know (this happens with excess supplies of name brand California cabernets all the time). And I honor that request. As far as High West and our own distillates, I am very proud of our products. Just as other craft distillers, we have a vodka. I chose oats for ours as I like the taste they impart on a spirit. Our vodka has been highly rated by well known tasters. We are also distilling and aging our own whiskey, several styles in fact. My mentor, Jim Rutledge at Four Roses, is actually the inspiration for why I am independent bottling. First, he impressed on me the need for cash flow. We all get that. Second, it will allow High West to launch our own whiskey after several years of aging rather than being forced to sell whiskey at 1 year or 2 years old. Third, if we do a good job at independent bottling, maybe it will help to build a brand image (or maybe not if Chuck thinks I'm disingenuous!). I consider myself very lucky to have found the whiskies that we now sell. Our 2 best sellers are essentially our own unique "creations", just like what blenders in Scotland produce. Wonderfully, they are also our highest rated whiskies (we were very lucky to get a 95 point rating for Rendezvous and a 90 point rating for Bourye by John Hansell, whom I consider a very hard grader). Rendezvous blends a young whiskey (6 years old) and a very old whiskey (16 years). That's not a very common practice in the US whiskey world (if it is, no one tells you they are blending young and old). Our Bourye was really a fun experiment to see what it would be like to blend a great bourbon and a great rye. I went through 30 different permutations and what I found was stunning to me. Unlike a "high rye" bourbon that has an even spice profile from beginning to end in your mouth, Bourye has a very different taste profile. It actually starts out like a bourbon (not spicy) and only later does the rye spice kick in. I found it delicious and what a great drink to be able to sell. Yes, blending straights is done all the time and I am not responsible for discovering that you can blend straights. One of my favorite "vatted" straights is Woodford Reserve (pot + column still whiskey). We all know Four Roses is essentially 10 bourbons and Jim is able to achieve some amazing combinations by "vatting" (or mingling as he likes to say). What is a big deal to me is that there are no "blended straights" because a single distillery doesn't have to use that terminology.

I hope this clarifies some of the questions in this thread. I can't be all things to all people and no matter what you say or how you say it, there's always going to be imperfect communication. Chuck (or anyone in the thread), if you come to Utah ever, and you should, please let me know and I'll buy you a drink and be your friend.

[Rughi]

As with most accusations Chuck makes, there is less here than meets the eye.

:grin:

Roger

[sailor22]

if you come to Utah ever, and you should, please let me know and I'll buy you a drink and be your friend.

[Josh]

Hi Gentlemen...

[p_elliott]

To Notamormon

I wrote a whole long post I erased it I'm glad you posted here we needed to here your side of the story. I would like to try your whiskey.

Paul

[cowdery]

Mr. Perkins is entitled to run his business however he chooses. He is not the only person to follow his approach. He is not the only 'craft' distillery to say he has "sourced the whiskey from back east while we are waiting for our own whiskey to age," or words to that effect.

I am skeptical in part because no one who has taken that approach has subsequently replaced the third-party product with a house-made one.

As Mr. Perkins notes, he has had a still and a license for four years. He could have a four-year-old whiskey of his own creation on the market right now, but he doesn't. Again, that's his prerogative, but that is what leads me to conclude that his is a Potemkin Craft Distillery, at least so far as whiskey is concerned. ("Something that appears elaborate and impressive but in actual fact lacks substance.")

What I continue to find disingenuous is a publicity effort that focuses on "award winning small batch mountain crafted spirits" and leads with products you merely bought and bottled. Your web site talks about how "High West Distillery and Saloon started with one man’s passion to make a great Rocky Mountain Whiskey," but it doesn't mention that your dream is, so far, unrealized.

On your product page you write "High West Distillery crafts products for people who want great taste and appreciate quality ingredients, small batches, and the distiller's personal touch." Anyone reading that would be entitled to believe you made everything.

Granted, you do, in the next sentence, admit that you did not, but it is hard not to conclude that your intention is to fuzz the distinction.

I have repeatedly had the experience of having someone rave to me about this terrific whiskey made by this little distillery in Utah. When I explain that the whiskey was most likely made in Indiana, not Utah, they express disbelief and disappointment. Can you seriously deny that your intention has been to create the impression that you are making all of the products you sell? You call your business "High West Distillery and Saloon," not "High West Distillery, Saloon and Rectifier," after all.

There are micro-distilleries such as Finger Lakes, Dry Fly, Garrison Brothers and others who have eschewed the course of buying spirits for resale and have, instead, found a business model that allows them to only present products of their own manufacture. I tend to regard those companies more highly than I do companies that take the other approach. That's my prerogative as a consumer.

So while I commend High West for making some exceptional whiskeys available to the marketplace, I continue to find the company's Potemkin Craft Distillery pose disingenuous.

[ShewDawg]

I am excited to try their whiskey it sounds like it will be enjoyable, just saw it on the shelf of a local store.

I am sort of surprised about all of the chatter about them rectifying their whiskey, it's seems to be a pretty common occurrence and not sure what all of the fuss is about. Honestly, before I read these boards and even early on prior to talking with my father, I would not have known Woodford or Van Winkle or KBD were not distilleries to it's truest form.

Just to see what was firing folks up, I went to HW and poked around to see what the said. It didn't strike me as being overly offensive, par for the course. I went to the other sites and it would be tough to find if someone wasn't really paying attention and was looking for on the site. For instance, WR has "Authentic and Hand Crafted" on their site, but digging down a couple of clicks you see they aren't the ones making it. Same for the others, but still tastes great.

I enjoy those whiskies quite a bit, and I do not hold it against them; I would if it didn't taste so damn good. Whoever finds the good stuff, keep bringing it to the market at a fair price, I'll keep drinking them!

[Lost Pollito]

I am sort of surprised about all of the chatter about them rectifying their whiskey,

I don't believe they're rectifying. Just bottling, and blending some. I really loved them all. I'm excited to taste the High West distilled rye and bourbon. Any time frame on those being bottled Dave?

[p_elliott]

Chuck

Why is that Pappy Van Winkle doesn't distill their own stuff and are not going to start, KBD doesn't doesn't distill their own stuff and aren't going to start. But you don't chastise these companies for being rectifiers. Why is that? Another thing It is my understanding that when distilleries sell their barrel to to these places they are not to reveille where they got them from from. So to harass the bottler for not revelling is not a legitimate request.

Paul

[callmeox]

Simply being a rectifier or independent bottler isn't the crux of the issue. If you don't see a difference between what Julian and Preston are doing and what HW and Templeton are doing, I suggest you take a step back and honestly think about it. Don't let having a past axe to grind with Chuck get in the way.

Also, those who are not being intentionally dense know that KBD is in the process of building their own still.

Disclaimer:

I like the Rendezvous Rye and was given a sample of it by a friend who brought a bottle back from a trip to Utah. He was really impressed by the rye whiskey that he said was distilled in Utah. The fact is that confusion about the product is out there, probably due to marketing fluff.

[Lost Pollito]

At the very least, the site says, "while our ditillate is aging, we sell some we found". I like that admission being in print on their site.

[DeanSheen]

At the very least, the site says, "while our ditillate is aging, we sell some we found". I like that admission being in print on their site.

The site says that but the wording on the bottle is obtuse in regards to provenance. The bottle is much more visible than the site.

Do we have confirmation that there actually is distillate aging?