High West Distillery

[Lost Pollito]

Do we have confirmation that there actually is distillate aging?

That's what I've been told, but I have not been to visit.

[cowdery]

Anybody who thinks I give KBD a pass hasn't been reading me. Ditto Woodford, Van Winkle, Bulleit, etc. Are you kidding me with this stuff?

"Rectifier," as the word is used these days, is synonymous with "blender" and is the best description of what HW does with regard to its whiskeys.

Even assuming the best of intentions, people who start a new distillery based on a bulk whiskey product put themselves in a box, because they have built their reputation on a product they can't possibly duplicate--let alone exceeed--with their house-made product.

[sailor22]

The back of my bottle of Rendezvous reads;

"In this tradition of importing Whiskey from back East (while we age our own Whiskey) we crafted Rendezvous from two exotic straight Rye Whiskies."

On the back of my bottle of 21 yr;

"High West was fortunate to find some very rare and unique Rye expressions quietly aging in a Kentucky warehouse"

Unfortunately the 16yr has been consumed and the bottle disposed of.

I read the back and understood that High West didn't distill the juice inside but that they were excited to get something a little unusual into the bottle. I never for a moment thought they distilled it. I don't see how they could be more clear about the product.

[CorvallisCracker]

Also, those who are not being intentionally dense know that KBD is in the process of building their own still.

[callmeox]

Which has been dragging on for years, meaning they are being intentionally slow. It doesn't take that long to get a still into production.

It all depends on how you want to pay for it, I guess.

[jburlowski]

FWIW, Drew Kulsveen said last Friday that they will start distilling this quarter, hopefully on March 17th.

[Lost Pollito]

FWIW, Drew Kulsveen said last Friday that they will start distilling this quarter, hopefully on March 17th.

That's great news !!!

[cowdery]

I wish KBD and all similar companies the best, and if KBD is ever going to start distilling, now is the time. The fact, however, is that Drew's father told me they would be distilling their own product 'soon' in a conversation we had 20 years ago. For 20 years it has always been 'soon,' or 'next year,' or 'next quarter.'

So is my skepticism really so out of line?

[notamormon]

Hi everyone and Chuck,

David Perkins here again from High West. I actually like Chuck's writing and usually smile when I read it, even though much of it is based on subjective opinion rather than fact. I even think the Potemkin metaphor is kind of funny. But I figured it might be interesting to get some more facts on the table and tell my side of the story. And just for fun I have my own metaphor: Oz and the "man behind the curtain." Honestly I feel like Dorothy standing up to the almighty Wizard. We've all read Chuck for years and we all admire his love and passion for one of America's greatest and least appreciated industries and products. He is a respected force in the industry and its a better industry with him. But we all know the man behind the curtain's bark is bigger than his bite. Chuck, I am pleased that you took the time to go to my website for some fact checking as its always better when the facts come from someone other than the accused. High West is indeed a rectifier, or a processor as the TTB calls it - I am not trying to hide it nor have I ever. I know you were trying to be funny but I'm not sure Rectifier is the best word to stick in a company name as you suggest. Most people have no idea what it means. I appreciate that you agree that I "admit" not making everything. Its been awhile since I read my own High West website and after reading your compelling comments I was beginning to think I was a misleading bastard. Again, I never had any intention of misleading and figured what I wrote was straightforward and a reasonable person would get it. Anyone can second guess my "copy writing" all day long. I actually write all the copy myself. I hate what ad agencies come up with as it just doesn't sound like me. All the back labels, all of the website, its all me. Sailor22: thanks for the fact check on my back labels. Again, its nice that I don't have to point it out and show that its not really obtuse. I travel a lot and visit bars and liquor stores and have told people that the whiskies we have now were not distilled by High West. Its not a mystery that I get the question all the time. I have yet to meet anyone who has jumped all over me about it.

Back to Potemkin. Yes Chuck, High West is distilling its own spirits and has been for 4 years, 2 years as an experimental DSP and 2 years as a fully commercial DSP. Just for fun, I enclosed a picture of my Oz (or your Potemkin if you wish). Not sure if the resolution will come through but hopefully you can make out a copper thingy in the middle window (if you can't please visit highwest.com). That is indeed a still. It would be a pretty expensive decoration for Potemkin and not a very good business decision on my part. But interpret things how you will; anyone is certainly entitled to the opinion that it is expensive decor. I can't make you not think that. As Chuck says, I am "entitled to run my business however I chose" so even though its my passion, I chose NOT to start distilling whiskey right away - it is rather expensive to park barrels of distillate and not get the cashflow, and I had a very good reason I needed to be conservative on cashflow that I'll talk about later. So we started to distill vodka right away, out of oats because I thought oat distillate tasted really good and I wanted to do something unique. And the cashflow is nice, really nice. Did I mention that our distiller was a former brewer and a graduate of Heriot Watt? Brendon Coyle is a really great guy and I hope you get to meet him. As I mentioned earlier, the idea to buy someone else's rye whiskey came from a mentor of mine, Jim Rutledge. I really didn't want to do it at first but God bless his idea. Again, cashflow is nice. Better yet however, was the possibility of buying whiskey that wasn't like anything on the market and had been under our American noses for many years and no-one knew nor did the distillers that made them take a chance on selling them. When I tasted the ryes we now sell (about 5 years ago) I thought they were some of the best tasting whiskies I had ever had. When I asked why they don't sell the rye, they said "Marketing won't let us as no-one drinks rye." I asked if I could buy some and they said "have as much as you want." In retrospect, it seems pretty obvious. But back then, I had alot of people tell me I was crazy and I'd lose my shirt. I had to trust my gut and go for it (it was alot of $) but to be honest I didn't sleep much for about two years as I was trying to get my own plant up and running. When I sourced the 21 year old, I thought it was incredible, ethereal ultra elegant whiskey - no wonder because it was aged in USED barrels. A gentleman from the distillery that made it said "I don't know why you'd want it because you can't call it STRAIGHT". I thought to myself (1) how many people know what Straight means anyway and (2) what a great way to start a business by selling something that no-one could buy before. I also thought it sure is nice to be a little different than KBD, or Black Maple Hill, or Van Winkle by having a very different product. The 16 year old that we got was also fun because of its unusual mash bill with 80% rye, 10% corn and 10% malt. I thought, my mom's never going to believe this (nor would Chuck for that matter). As you all know, the usual mashbill for rye's hover around 51-53%. I couldn't believe they sold me this. And then when I experimented with mixing the different whiskies, I couldn't believe what a difference it made on improving the taste and complexity! This really helped me train my palette and gave me a much greater respect for the Scottish blenders. And again, this helped High West at least be a little different from the other American independent bottlers (or rectifiers if you will) by creating something unique and very very different that anything on the market (Rendezvous, Bourye) even though I didn't distill it. I appreciate the support I've received from consumers and people in the industry that tell me I've created something uniquely my own and of value to the world of American whiskey.

Back to Potemkin. We started distilling our own whiskey a year and a half ago and have begun to distill whiskey in earnest now that our facility in Park City (Potemkin, or Oz, the thing in the picture) is finished. But honesty, I don't want to sell an aged product for as long as I can hold out as a business. For my palette, older is better. I respect the other craft distilleries for launching their whiskies at an early age. We all know how well Tuthilltown is doing. I think the world of Jess Graber and his whiskey. But I want to wait. Interestingly, everywhere I go, I bring a bottle of our oat white dog (the same base as our oat vodka). Most people have not had white whiskey and if they have its usually dreadful, full of higher alcohols and pretty rough. People love our oat white dog and to such an extent that I have been asked many times if I'd sell it. I had resisted for the last year but finally decided to sell our oat whiskey unaged. Our label is pending TTB approval. I will bring the whiskey to all the whiskeyfests this year. I hope you get to try it. Its really good. In fact, it is a TTB designated "light whiskey", distilled to 170 proof instead of under 160 proof (as straights are made). We are doing our own straights but for an unaged product, a cleaner distillate will be more approachable for most consumers.

Back to Potemkin. After about 4 years in the planning, we finally finished our facility in Park City (we were located in a warehouse while waiting). To attract customers, I really wanted to locate in an historic building in Old Town Park City. Because our building was on the National Historic Register, we were a slave to many masters that don't talk to each other and construction took a very long time to complete. As a result, the construction was alot more expensive than we anticipated and was a bit of a killer to a whiskey barreling program if you are worried about cash flow (and every entrepreneur better be!). Now we are open and we have a restaurant. We call ourselves the High West Distillery and Saloon (and rectifier!). On our website we call ourselves a gastro-distillery because our food is pretty good. So you can see us distilling whiskey or vodka, and have a bite to eat. In fact, you can ski right up to our building (well you have to cross the street but its close enough). It really is a nice place to visit.

So I am following my own personal yellow brick road. I started my career as a biochemist and have worked for drug companies all my life. When my passion for whiskey and cooking and chemistry was too much my wife let me quit a great job at a great company, and we are still married. When I met Jim Rutledge, I knew the Gods were on my side. He taught me more than I could find in any books. Since quitting I've never worked harder and haven't looked back. I try my best to run an honest operation with integrity and passion. I know I can't please all the people all the time. But I try. I hope this helps to clear it up for some of you. Come by and visit me. And Chuck, I'll still buy you a drink.

[notamormon]

Hopefully the picture of Oz (Potemkin) makes it this time.

[p_elliott]

Simply being a rectifier or independent bottler isn't the crux of the issue. If you don't see a difference between what Julian and Preston are doing and what HW and Templeton are doing, I suggest you take a step back and honestly think about it. Don't let having a past axe to grind with Chuck get in the way.

Also, those who are not being intentionally dense know that KBD is in the process of building their own still.

Disclaimer:

I like the Rendezvous Rye and was given a sample of it by a friend who brought a bottle back from a trip to Utah. He was really impressed by the rye whiskey that he said was distilled in Utah. The fact is that confusion about the product is out there, probably due to marketing fluff.

First off I want to say I don't have a past axe to grind with Chuck or anyone else on this site. Contrary to what Scott has posted I don't have next day remorse about my post although I admit there was one mistake, Chuck was giving KBD as bad a time as HWD in this thread.

As far as KBD having a still and me being intentionally dense I think that issue has been resolved.

As far as The Van Winkles being any different from any other rectifier I think it's you Scott that had better take a step back and look at the facts. Do they distill anything? No. Does it say Old Rip Van Winkle Distillery on their bottle? yes. Does this distillery exist? No. Do they get their bourbon from many different sources? yes. They currently bottle bourbon from SW that they didn't distill , from Bernheim that they didn't distill, and BT that they contract with both with the bourbon and the bottling and distribution. So how exactly are they different from HW or KBD? I would like an explanation remember I'm intentionally dense.

[callmeox]

Distilleries that only exist on paper as DBA's have been a part of the American whiskey business for longer than we have been around.

Old Evan Williams Distillery

Old Forester Distillery

W.L. Weller and Sons Distillery

Rock Hill Farms Distillery

Elijah Craig Distillery

etc, etc, etc

I presume that you have read Chuck's book, so you probably recall the chapter on that topic. Perhaps that is where you were admittedly being intentionally dense here.

Now, the difference between Van Winkle/KBD and Templeton/High West?

Templeton and High West have public/retail front ends, yet neither has a drop of their own whiskey on the market. They are using their shiny facilities as a marketing tool to sell their acquired products. One can say that they are using their public facilities to create the illusion that they are selling their own product. If you believe in varying levels of guilt, Templeton looks to be more guilty of this than HW but the fact remains.

When is the last time that you went on a public tour of KBD or ORVW (or Bulleit)? Yes, they sell ORVW swag in the gift shop at Buffalo Trace, but there's no illusion that you are touring the BT distillery. KBD, ORVW, and Bulleit are selling sourced whiskey, but they are doing it behind the scenes without the elaborate physical front end as a marketing tool.

[cowdery]

I appreciate David's willingness to participate in this conversation.

When this whole micro-distillery thing burst on the scene, I think a lot of whiskey enthusiasts poured their hopes and dreams into it, setting up unrealistic expectations in many cases.

On the other side, most of the entrepreneurs starting these enterprises were figuring it out as they went along. A few missteps were inevitable.

One problem confronted by macros and micros alike is that you have two distinct audiences; the large, general public audience that may drink whiskey but doesn't really know much about it, or care; and the much smaller but very intensely interested and knowledgeable enthusiast audience. Crafting a message that is good for one of those audiences can alienate the other. It isn't easy.

I don't think David would deny that there are some people out there who have adopted the veneer of the craft distillery without the substance. I think his point is that while those people exist, he is not one of them, and I'm happy to take him at his word.

Let's see how it goes.

[p_elliott]

What did Jim Beam or HH do for money for the first few years they were starting up? They had to do the same thing?

[cowdery]

What did Jim Beam or HH do for money for the first few years they were starting up? They had to do the same thing?

[p_elliott]

You don't think they bought bourbon and resold it ?? I'm not trying to be a smart ass I'm serious

[doubleblank]

I'll bite and grade the "rectifiers" on how much info they disclose regarding the provenance of their whiskies (distiller, age, etc). My grade will be based on what is posted on websites, bottle labels, participation on whiskey forums, disucsions at whiskey events, and one-on-one visits. Of course some get F's in some categories and A's in others, so its an "average" so to speak and I am grading on a curve (someone has to get an A and someone has to fail).

High West Grade = A

Templeton Grade = F

KBD Grade = C minus

Van Winkle Grade = B

McLain and Kyne Grade = C plus

Preiss Grade = C

Luxco Grade = D

Only an opinion and based on limited to no personal contact with several.

Randy

[Gillman]

On the point of the 1930's start-ups, I can't say for them specifically (HH and Beam), but I have seen countless labels for bourbon whiskey aged 18 months and 24 months from the immediate post-Volstead era. Bourbon was sold young until the aging process caught up to expectations although some of that young bourbon had some pre-Pro whiskey placed in to improve it.

Vodka was not sold domestically then, but possibly some gin was made by these concerns.

I would think too that HH and Beam made corn whiskey and sold it quite young. In those years, I believe there was a decent market for corn whiskey.

Gary

[sailor22]

High West Grade = A

Templeton Grade = F

KBD Grade = C minus

Van Winkle Grade = B

McLain and Kyne Grade = C plus

Preiss Grade = C

Luxco Grade = D

Nice. Where would you place CVS?

[cowdery]

Distillers like Beam and HH also created blends using the little bit of aged whiskey that was left over from pre-prohibition stocks. Blends in the early post-prohibition years might have contained some of this 13- to 20-year-old whiskey; some new make corn, rye or bourbon; some lightly-aged rye or bourbon, and some GNS. Being blends, they could also add vanilla, caramel and other flavorings and colorings.

The only sense in which these or any distillers were buying whiskey for resale was buying some of this pre-pro stock. After all, nothing else was available. Nobody had more whiskey than anyone else and the only people selling (the pre-pro stock) were people who didn't intend to re-enter the business.

Some did make gin (vodka not being very popular yet), imported and resold Irish, Canadian and Scotch, and did whatever they could to get a business going, but the market was for aged bourbon and rye, and that took time.

[doubleblank]

I knew I'd forget some "rectifiers" like Frank Lin, et al. Probably place most of them in the D plus Grade.

Randy

[Gillman]

Good point about the blends (i.e., incorporating some neutral spirits as a base), and no doubt people were glad to get them until the fully-aged bourbon and rye were available. Indeed, the blends probably were much more palatable than 18-24 month old bourbon, which may have given a kick-start to the blended whiskey market that only sputtered once vodka really got going.

Gary

[p_elliott]

Good point about the blends (i.e., incorporating some neutral spirits as a base), and no doubt people were glad to get them until the fully-aged bourbon and rye were available. Indeed, the blends probably were much more palatable than 18-24 month old bourbon, which may have given a kick-start to the blended whiskey market that only sputtered once vodka really got going.

Gary

Correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Americans really get their introduction into and taste for blended whiskey during prohibition from all the Canadian whiskey that was smuggled in?

[cowdery]

Long before that. In the late 19th century, long before Prohibition, so-called compound whiskeys (essentially blends) dominated the U.S. whiskey market. They outsold straights by a wide margain. There was, however, a lot of misleading labeling, which led to the Taft Decision which created the categories of straight whiskey and blended whiskey. Scottish and Canadian blends were popular during Prohibition and after Prohibition, many distilleries made blends out of necessity, but American consumers switched back to straights as soon as enough aged whiskey was available and straights have prevailed among consumers of American whiskey ever since. People who like Canadian whiskey and blended scotch drink those products, but that hasn't carried over into success for American blends.

[p_elliott]

Thanks, here in Iowa Canadian whiskey far out sells straight whiskey. Bars will only carry 3 or 4 straight whiskeys like JD, JBW, TH, and WT 101 but will have many Canadians.