Wheated bourbons

[Giobo]

Greetings from Boston, home of the Bourbon Boys. We love wheated bourbons, especially Van Winkle's

Does anyone on the website know if the following bourbons are wheated:

VanWinkles 12 year old "lot B"

VanWinkles 20 year old

Van Winkles 23 year old.

Jim Murray, author of several whiskey books says that the 20 and 23 year olds are not wheated. It was our understanding that all theVan Winkles were the same wheated recipe only aged for different times. Any info on this will be greatly appreciated.

[cowdery]

The man himself, Julian VanWinkle III, participates in this forum, so he can tell you for himself, but I am quite sure that all of the whiskey he bottles under the VanWinkle name is wheated.

--Chuck Cowdery

[cowdery]

I should have said "all of the bourbon he bottles under the VanWinkle name is wheated," since obviously the Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye is not wheated.

--Chuck Cowdery

[kitzg]

Julian makes some of the finest bourbon on earth. However, if I understand my conversation this past weekend with him, the 20 yr old was not wheated nor was the 23 yr old. The new 20 yr old coming out soon is wheated.

As Chuck said, Julian will undoubtedly read all this. I'm fairly certain I understood correctly.

Greg

[jvanwinkle]

Hi Bourbon boys.

Greg is correct. My original 20-Year "Pappy", which I am out of, was un-wheated as is the 23-year "Pappy". The new 20-year "Pappy" coming out this December is wheated. It is the same distillation as my 10, 12 & 15 year Bourbons. This will be the first time this particular distillation has been bottled at 20-years old, and it is wonderfull-if I do say so myself!

Julian

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Trust me, Julian, you sure aren't by yourself! The New Pappy is one outstanding bourbon. Linda & I spent Friday evening at D.Marie's with Mike, Greg, and Jo (sorry to have missed you and Sally) sipping (among many other things) their sample of the new bourbon. We'll be adding a new page to our website about that and Mike's tour of the Shively distilleries soon, and the following about the new Pappy Van Winkle 20-year-old is a quote from it...

"...you don't even have to drink this bourbon to be blown away by it; you need only pass the glass under your nose every once in awhile. Jo's comment after tasting her first sip (this time around that is; it's the second time she's tasted it) is just simply, 'WOW!'.  Well, that pretty much captures everyone's opinion."

=John=

http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[kitzg]

One comment. The world misses the real Pappy, the man - for good reason. A great man. The world of bourbon lovers should miss the old Pappy Van Winkle's 20 yr. old but welcome the new Pappy 20 yr old with open arms. Can we really go from ecstasy to sublime? We think so.

Greg

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

While I can not answer whether all the Van Winkle's are wheated, I can tell you about the most magnificent wheated bourbon I have ever encountered. I recently toured the Buffalo Trace distillery and met bourbon brand manager, Ken Weber. He showed me a bottle of W.L.Weller 19 year old wheated bourbon. The package is an eloquent Arian wine bottle complete with hand written labels showing the distilled and bottled dates. A scripted name is printed on the bottle and a back paper label tells the story of this marvelous whiskey.

So moved was I, that I asked for a private tasting and he took me to his office in the stately Stony Point mansion (home of Col. Albert B. Blanton) and poured me a small sample. This is what legends are made of. With only 300 cases being produced, the world may never know what the absolute best tastes like. I have already contacted my favorite package store and signed up for the first available bottle.

[cowdery]

I trust everyone else is as delighted as I am to have a Buffalo Trace representative in our midst.

--Chuck Cowdery

[Giobo]

Ken,"WOW!!! ",is all I can say. It seems a shame that this is such a limited production run that few of us will get the chance to experience what may be "The Ultimate Bourbon". While it is obvious that personal taste is going to rule when anyone votes what is the all time best, I wonder what our webmates would vote as "The Ultimate Bourbon". This could be a lot of fun or it could start another war.

I guess I am biased, but I have to say that wheated boubons have another level of class that non-wheated spirits can't touch. If

adding more wheat to the mashbill can work such magic, why haven't more distillers become aware of this secret? Has Julian Van Winkle, like The Shadow achieved the "power to cloud mens' minds", so that he has staked out this lofty summit of bourbondom and kept it to himself?

[cowdery]

In addition to the former Stitzel-Weller brands (Old Fitzgerald, Old Weller) and the VanWinkle bottlings, the other wheated bourbon is Maker's Mark. Wheat v. Rye really is a matter of personal taste, not an indicia of quality per se. As famously advertised by Maker's Mark, wheat supposedly is gentler than rye, so a wheated bourbon has less bite. Some people like that bite. Wheat is one way to diminish it. High distillation proof, high corn content and charcoal leaching (i.e., the Lincoln County Process) are ways to produce a mild flavor with a rye formula. Otherwise, it takes time to tame a rye whiskey. I'm thinking about Wild Turkey Rare Breed or Kentucky Spirit, Labrot and Graham Woodford Reserve, Evan Williams Single Barrel and 12-year-old Old Charter. All are traditional formula bourbons, well tempered by age, and very fine.

Back when there were hundreds of distilleries in the Ohio River watershed, there undoubtedly were many that used wheat instead of rye, even wheat and rye in combination.

One explanation for why rye formulas have become dominent could be the Beam family. In addition to the Jim Beam company and Heaven Hill, Beams have been employed at dozens of different distilleries and the traditional Beam family formula is rye-based. On the other hand, members of the Beam family worked at both Stitzel-Weller and Maker's Mark, but that only shows them capable of making a wheat formula. They may still prefer a rye formula.

--Chuck Cowdery

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

I too have often wondered about the uniqueness of wheat formula bourbons. Even Maker's Mark is really just Bill Samuel (senior)'s take on the Old Fitzgerald recipe (including the yeast, according to Sally Campbell). That is, the Stitzel-Weller Old Fitz recipe -- no one ever said that was the way it was made before they bought the label. In fact, I don't think I've ever actually read anything that indicates any particular commercial distillery ever used anything but corn, malt, and rye in making bourbon. I can't remember ever seeing a 19th century ad or label that indicated wheat being used. Are you really sure that it wasn't a relatively recent (~1900) invention by the Stitzel brothers? After all, we take the standard warehouse rick system for granted, but that also came from the Stitzels (Fredrick), in the late 1800's.

...Otherwise, it takes time to tame a rye whiskey. I'm thinking about Wild Turkey Rare Breed or Kentucky Spirit, Labrot and Graham Woodford Reserve, Evan Williams Single Barrel and 12-year-old Old Charter. All are traditional formula bourbons, well tempered by age, and very fine.

Yes, and all are considerably younger than Julian's fine product and the best of the Stitzel-Weller wheaters. In fact, although I do enjoy five-year-olds like Old Fitz and Maker's Mark, it does seem to take more time to make really good wheat-formula bourbon than it does for rye. Evan Williams Single Barrel is ten years old and excellent. Old Rip Van Winkle's <u>youngest</u> offering is also 10, and all the rest are older and noticeabley smoother, richer, and more finished-tasting. The Old Charter and the 12-year-old Wild Turkey (which is also the oldest of the whiskeys used for Rare Breed) are as mature as you would ever want. I really don't think they could get any better (through aging). Woodford Reserve and Kentucky Spirit are half that age and they've become all they can be (which is plenty). Meanwhile, Julian's wheaties are just beginning to become acceptable within their own range of maturity... which then goes on to extend up to 15 and now 20 years. It's kinda funny in a way -- the original choice of wheat may have been based on the fact that it's cheaper than rye, but it seems to take twice as long to get a good bourbon out it. Then again, it's a really good bourbon.

Anyway, do either you or Mike (or anyone else) know of an actual document that indicates the use of wheat by a successful commercial distillery that wasn't related in some way to the Stitzels?

=John=

http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

John,

There are many reference to using wheat in distilling including all wheat whiskey. Glenmore had wheat whiskey and wheat and rye whiskey mash bills but no wheat and corn. Henry McKenna got his start by distilling the left over grain from the mill he ran and this included wheat whiskey but there is no indication that he made a wheat bourbon. There were probably others that did use wheat instead of rye but they may have been like Pappy Van Winkle and kept it a trade secret. The hopper for the wheat and barley was labeled "Rye and Barley" until after the death of Pappy Van Winkle. He did not want other to know his secret recipe. Other distillers may have felt the same way.

Mike Veach

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Oh my!!

Thanks for the info, and especially for the juicy tidbit about the hopper labels. So I guess Pappy would be having conniptions if he knew we were all discussing his secret on an open, world-wide forum. I'm sure glad Julian isn't that secretive. But look at all the respect Pappy's (and Julian's) bourbon gets (not to mention word-of-mouth advertising and sales). 'Cause it's still pretty unique, even when all the other distillers know about it.

Are there any examples of these other distillers' wheat products? Perhaps in the museum? Now THAT's what I'd like to see in addition to the University of Bourbonia general ciricula... a sort of 'post-graduate' course featuring some of these impossible to find bourbons.

By the way... This weekend we visited with Marvin & Evelyn Franz at their home. We had an opportunity to try (a thoroughly enjoy) the dreaded Distillers' Masterpiece. More on that later (in the appropriate topic area). We've been spending some of this evening finding appropriate mixture substitutes, having decided that Knob Creek and Cognac just doesn't even come close (ain't different opinions wonderful?). Pictures at eleven...

=John=

http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

John,

Send Marvin and Evelyn my greetings the next time you see them.

I don't think Pappy would be too upset. Remember those were different times and I think Pappy would have led the way with these super premium brands in the same way Julian is today. In fact when you consider that Pappy was bottling 8, 10 and 15 year old bourbon when everybody else was selling 4 to 6 year products, you could say that he did lead the way to the new premium market.

Mike Veach

[cowdery]

Recipes for bourbon weren't too formalized until late in the game, primarily after the law got involved, first with the Bottled in Bond Act in the late 1800s, and the other laws and regulations that followed. It was only post-prohibition that bourbon was defined as being at least 51 percent corn, etc. In the old days, certainly for most of the 19th century and before, people used whatever they had. If all you had was corn (which was often the case), you made a 100 percent corn whiskey, even malting some of it. If you had some small grains handy, you threw them in for flavor. If you had some barley, you malted that because it malted more easily and converted the starch more effectively than other malts.

The earliest distilleries were associated with mills and operated on a barter system. The farmer brought his grain to the mill and the miller kept a portion of it (e.g., 10 percent) as his fee for providing the milling services. The miller would then distill his share. In the nature of that system, the miller didn't control what he got. He got a percentage of whatever came in the door. This probably varied throughout the year as the harvest times for different grains occurred. One week he might have a lot of corn, the next week a lot of wheat, and the week after that a lot of barley. Whiskey can be made from any grain and probably was, based primarily on what farmers decided to grow, not on the distiller's preference for a certain formula.

Corn was always the most plentiful and productive grain, in terms of yield, so it generally formed the base for all distilling in Kentucky. But corn whiskey doesn't have much flavor. You need some small grains for that. Of these, rye and wheat were the most common and most often used, sometimes in combination, based, as I said, more on availability than preference. As wheat production moved west, rye in the necessary quantities may have been more readily available, or perhaps since the dominant American made whiskey was rye, bourbon makers decided drinkers preferred that taste. In other words, when they had a choice, they made bourbons that resembled ryes.

Subsequntly, the impetus to make a wheat whiskey probably came from the desire to make a whiskey that would taste good with less aging--an economic concern--and I think wheat meets that need (though apparently John Lipman disagrees). Or it may have been the marketing instinct to create a point of difference. Remember, at that time there were hundreds of distilleries, mostly selling to wholesalers. If you, as a distiller, had corn whiskey and wheat whiskey and rye whiskey to sell, you had more to offer than someone who only made corn.

Some of this is speculation, of course, but it is consistent with the historical realities as I know them.

--Chuck Cowdery

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

To my taste, the best wheat and the best rye bourbons are of a similarly phenominal taste. But I prefer the average wheat to the average rye, by a pretty strong margin. It seems like it's easier to get very good whiskey from a wheat mashbill than rye, but it takes a lot of effort from either to attain the truely sublime.

John A. Dube

[Ken Weber]

Now I know who you are! I have had people e-mailing me with questions and I had no idea who was sending them my way. They refered to "Mr. Harris", but I just drew a blank on the name. Looking through the forum section, I found that you mention my name a few times. I will have to make sure I quit lying and making up things that I can't back-up! I am happy to see that I have not said anything too incriminating in your note.

I have been reading the wheated discussion with much interest. I have also been interested in the rye comments (pun intended!). As the brand manager for Weller (and Sazerac Rye), I am very interested in the histories of these whiskies. It seems that Sally's account of Marker's Mark being based on Weller took many people by surprise. From what I have learned, Pappy gave Bill Samuel's father the recipe, yeast strain, and some financial assistance in setting up his operation. Whether the recipe or yeast have been altered over the years, only the Samuels' know.

I wish I seen you at WhiskeyFest in New York. Several people commented on the differences in taste of some of the wheated bourbons and rye whiskies. Like any product out there, different strokes for different folks.

[MashBill]

Ken,

Pappy may have helped Bill Sr. start up Maker's but they must have changed the formula somewhere along the line. I think the Weller and Old Fitz products are far superior to Maker's. Of course that's just my opinion.

Bill

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

MashBill said, "Pappy may have helped Bill Sr. start up Maker's but they must have changed the formula somewhere along the line. I think the Weller and Old Fitz products are far superior to Maker's. Of course that's just my opinion."

Hi Bill,

My opinion, too, but that's just because I prefer that style of bourbon. I imagine the Samuels' haven't altered a thing (in fact, I'm sure they're proud to be able to say that). What I think is that Maker's was never really intended to be competitive with the Stitzel-Weller bourbons. Its style, as well as its marketing and placement puts it up against Jim Beam and (perhaps less successfully) Wild Turkey. It does this very well, and in doing so reduces the market share of these two formidable competitors of Old Fitzgerald.

Pappy Van Winkle's mom sure didn't raise no fools!

=John=

http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[Ken Weber]

I remember seeing a magazine ad or article about the yeast strain being used by Maker's. Bill Jr. says that he remembers his father baking bread with several different yeast strains until he hit upon the one he know employs in the making of his bourbon. From my background in the ad/marketing business, this has my radar tingling! But, who knows.

Ken

[cowdery]

It is a point of pride among distillers to make their own yeast, i.e., to capture and propigate a particularly suitable wild yeast strain. Jim Beam still uses the yeast Jim Beam himself propigated on the back porch of his Bardstown home in 1933.

I was told the story about Bill Samuels Sr. and Pappy Van Winkle this way by a former employee of Old Fitzgerald. Supposedly, Bill and Pappy were great friends. Bill told Pappy he was thinking about buying a small distillery and getting back into the whiskey business. He asked what course Pappy would recommend. Pappy said, "take my Old Fitzgerald recipe...I'll give it to you...put it in a fancy bottle and charge an arm and a leg for it. You won't be competing with me because that's not my business, and you'll make a fortune."

Fitz and Weller are the same recipe. Nothing was said in this telling about yeast. I can't prove whether or not this exchange happened, but I pass it along for what it's worth.

--Chuck Cowdery

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

I read in Regan's The Book of Bourbon, that the Maker's Mark yeast strain was pre-repeal of prohibition. "When T. William Samuels reentered the business, he brought with him the strain of yeast he had used back at the old distillery..."

John A. Dube

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

According to oral history tapes of Roy Hawes at the University of Louisville the yeast came from Stitzel-Weller and after it died out on them the first year, Pappy had to give them another starter. (Roy Hawes was Master Distiller at Stitzel-Weller at the time of Maker's Mark founding and experienced the events first hand).

Mike Veach

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

John, much as I enjoy reading Gary and Mardee's books, I'm afraid there's just too much misinformation in them to accept anything they say unless you see it backed up somewhere else.

=John=

http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey